I think eye exams should be covered too Jay...that's irrelevant to the debate on whether or not sex change operations should be covered or not though. Two seperate issues. If two things "ought" to be covered, the fact that one is not is not grounds to say that the other should not be covered either.

You're also comparing a relatively minor expense with one that costs thousands of dollars.

as for firestarter's quote of "Shoving the problem away by blaming society..."...um...I don't recall any arguments for the funding surgeries being based on "blaming" anyone. Candidates are stating that they feel the surgery should be covered...they're not saying it's society's fault that they were physically born one sex, yet unequivocably identifying as another.

I'm done with this debate...there's a serious lack of understanding and compassion in this thread from people who haven't even made any attempt to understand this issue, but are quick to rise up and condemn or dismiss it as irrelevant and unnecessary. find out the # of surgeries that occur every year and see how it really impacts our taxes. then compare that to cancer treatment, sports injuries, auto "accidents" (re: negligence), etc. and tell me that this is SUCH a gross misappropriation of public health dollars. It's a drop in the water but can RADICALLY improve the lives of those who undergo the procedure. Comparing this to obesity is ludicrous. In the majority of cases of obesity, there are a myriad of alternatives than lipo...diet, exercise, medication, etc. etc. etc. For a transgendered individual, there is not.

this is what the "me me me" society results in...a complete lack of caring about anyone or anything that doesn't directly benefit themselves. very sad indeed. this is hardly a major issue from a $$$ standpoint.

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Originally posted by TrueToTheCrew BTW if those twisted fuks want to cry about psychological effects, why not try to be a fat kid growing up in todays society. Overweight people get nothing for free. Burns my blood that we live in a society that would even debate the validity of this shit.

You can change obesity though. You have some degree of control over your own body weight.

Short of surgery, you are stuck with your gender.

Totally not comparable.

I don't think any of us can comprehend what these people feel like - at least I am affording them some sympathy, whereas most of you can't even seem to do that.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 So is vision impairment and chiropractic procedure. Both of which were delisted on Nov 1. So please, tell me why i should have to pay for these essential services now while sex change patients feel that they shouldnt? I'll support tax payer sex changes only when they relist basic procedures that i have to pay for. Otherwise if they win this court case i think optomitrists and chiropractors and their patients would have a legitimiate case.

you're right, they would have a case. I support both of those schools of medicine being covered. Keep in mind that anyone can walk into a chiropractor and receive treatment. No months of consulations, no therapy, nothing. The stringent level of screening for those seeking sex change surgery would astonish you. I think that screening of "unecessary" patients might serve the chriopractic community too, which I'm sure is ripe with "abuse" How many people go and get chiro just because "my back hurts". Great...lose some weight, stretch, and be more active. What are you going to tell a pre-op transgendered person? two different issues on SO many levels.

so...it does not follow that this surgery should therefore not be covered, simply because the others are not.

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Originally posted by Skipper eye exams are not the same as sex change operations - I'm surprised you would even try to make that comparison.

I agree... eye exams are important, sex change operations are not.

Jay for PM!

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Disco and classical had sex while watching a sci-fi movie. Their child: trance.

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Originally posted by MarkT I think eye exams should be covered too Jay...that's irrelevant to the debate on whether or not sex change operations should be covered or not though. Two seperate issues. If two things "ought" to be covered, the fact that one is not is not grounds to say that the other should not be covered either.

it is relevant because

a) its one of the questions i posed at the start of this debate

b) they are related because its all about prioritizing. Why should sex change patients get priority in the ranks of health care over eye exams? If we must prioritize then i think an eye exam is much more important to the health of Ontarians than a sex change.

My problem isnt necissarily with public funded sex changes. My problem is with how people can justify it on one hand while cutting basic services on the other. Also the absurdity of this court case saying it violates their rights. What about my right to be able to see clearly? What i am saying is that if they win this court case based on a violation of rights than surely i should be able to claim the same thing with denial of eye exams. To say otherwise would only illustrate the hypocrasy of the politically correct.

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Originally posted by jester Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill

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Originally posted by ShadoWolf I agree... eye exams are important, sex change operations are not. Jay for PM!

What an absolutely ignorant thing to say.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 My problem isnt necissarily with public funded sex changes. My problem is with how people can justify it on one hand while cutting basic services on the other. Also the absurdity of this court case saying it violates their rights. What about my right to be able to see clearly? What i am saying is that if they win this court case based on a violation of rights than surely i should be able to claim the same thing with denial of eye exams. To say otherwise would only illustrate the hypocrasy of the politically correct.

Then go to court.

These people are DOING something about their complaint. They are taking action. Maybe you should try that, instead of spending so much time whining from behind a computer screen.

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Originally posted by Skipper What an absolutely ignorant thing to say.

People who want a sex change operation need psychological help instead of an expensive procedure. Even if they do undergo the OPTIONAL procedure, I shouldn't have to pay for it.

In contrast, vision is vitally important to everyone and should be funded.

___________________
Nathan Fake - Outhouse (Valentino Kanzyani Remix) || ID PLZ! PVD ID!!!
Disco and classical had sex while watching a sci-fi movie. Their child: trance.

Last edited by ShadoWolf on Nov-29-2004 at 20:55

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Originally posted by Skipper You can change obesity though. You have some degree of control over your own body weight.

No it's not. People are born with morbid obesity (a disease), and it's almost impossible for them to control their weight. Your statement shows just how much you really know about the challenges facing people who are obese. Too bad really, cause otherwise you'd give them the same amount of sympathy you are doling out on post-op transexuals.

quote:

Short of surgery, you are stuck with your gender. Totally not comparable. I don't think any of us can comprehend what these people feel like - at least I am affording them some sympathy, whereas most of you can't even seem to do that.

I don't think they want your sympathy actually. All they want is a sex change operation because it's the only thing that will lift them out of thier gloom (depression, sexual dissillusionment, whatever you want to call it). My point is, if it's ok for transexuals to get an operation that will essentially only help their mental well being to improve, then why isn't it ok to do the same with a woman with low self esteem, whose lived with the stigma of being small chested asking the government to pay for her breast surgery ? When you categorize people, and their depression is there a scale, and if so, how much more depression does a transexual go through, compared to say a midget, or a flat chested woman, or a guy with red hair and two left feet ? When you read the article, it cites the cases of 4 transexuals who have appealed against this law. 4 !!! I'm almost positive there are thousands as many, non-transexuals out there who could put up a strong case that they need the have their medical procedures paid for as well.

So tommorow after they have gotten the $7000 surgery and lead happy fullfilling lifes as the gender they we believe they were supposed to be, how come us stright, non-transexuals don't get the same opportunity to change our body to achieve fullfillment ? I mean come on, there are obsese people out there who i'm sure could cite all the hardships they have faced in life, the scorn society heaps on the fat, the severe pschological damage done right through childhood and now crippling them in adult life. Surely they are entitled to some tax payer funded operation that will help them lead better lifes as well. We owe it to them as much as we do to transexuals. If not more. Apply the coat of sympathy evenly for gods sake.

The question of comparing the circumstances people are in and their problems is simply not possible. Yeah, i'm sure those 4 transexuals are feeling pretty bummed right now, trapped in the wrong sex. But i'm almost positive there are ten times as many men and women trapped in their daily lifes feeling that some part of their body isn't quite the way it should be, and whether or not they can do something about it, it becomes a question of fairness in my mind that if a transexual can claim a $7000 sex change is the key to his/her happiness then i should be able to lay a similar claim. I fail to see the equality in saying yes to a procedure that is hundreads of times more expensive then an eye exam or a visit to the chiropracter simply because it is corrects a wrong a person believes they were born with.

Sorry, but there are a whole lotta of people, who aren't transexuals who can use the same argument.

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"Hell is full of musical amateurs; music is the brandy of the damned."
~ George Bernard Shaw

Last edited by Kytracid on Nov-29-2004 at 20:31

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Originally posted by Skipper What an absolutely ignorant thing to say.

Are you the poster girl for NDP? Just wondering.

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Originally posted by Skipper You can change obesity though. You have some degree of control over your own body weight. Short of surgery, you are stuck with your gender. Totally not comparable. I don't think any of us can comprehend what these people feel like - at least I am affording them some sympathy, whereas most of you can't even seem to do that.

we may not be able to comprehend the level of pain that those people feel, but we are definatly able to undertand mental pain in general. remember, life is suffering, for everybody, these people are no different. they have been born with an extraordinary case yes, but the pain they feel, is no different than the pain i feel, or you feel. the level of that pain is arbritary.

i agree with the obesity argument. I know fat people go through a lot of pain, and being a thinner person, i put them through that pain as a kid; i wish i had not.

Many over weight people go through similar challenges in life, they get passed over for promotions, dont have as many friends, due to their reverted personalities, hell they cant even enjoy a simple game of catch without being out of breath. And im not talking about joe who ate 3 big macs for lunch, im talking about people born with the condition, which cannot be remidied by excercise/eating right.

i have a very close friend, who battle's with their sexuality, and even he sees a sex change as a luxury, and not a right.

when is the government not responsible any more? are we gonna ask them to pay for all of life's hardships?

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Originally posted by Skipper What an absolutely ignorant thing to say.

so you are saying that, he is not educated on the subbect, and if he were, then he would see your POV?

i think its just his opinion, weather its informed or not, is besides the point.