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Originally posted by Lateralus Id rather die for my cause than submit to unjustified american rule.

Firstly, I don't for a second doubt their patriotism or question their struggle for their country but when you are killing increasingly more of your own citizens instead of the enemy (and for all their ostensible agenda of liberation, the U.S. are the "enemy") than somewhere along the line they have lost the plot.

Secondly, this battle isnt as clear cut as the locals versus the invaders. Different ethnic and religious factions (mainly Shia versus Sunni) are trying to seize upon the opportunity to increase their future stake in an Iraqi nation.

On top of that, an increasing number of these insurgents are non-Iraqis which would explain the high number of Iraqi casualties as the foreigners don't distinguish Iraqis who have not only betrayed the cause of "Iraq" but also (more shocking in their eyes) their religion by co-operating with the U.S.

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Originally posted by Michael19 wouldnt be to sure about that

I don't see the U.S. pulling out. The prospect of having a chaotic anarchy in the Middle East and the formation of another rogue Taliban style state is too worrisome not just for the U.S. but for the whole of the Middle East. Also, a simple payoff analysis would suggest that it is no coincidence that Iraq has the 2nd largest oil supplies after Saudi Arabia.

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Originally posted by TuanAnh213 are you comparing Rome to Iraq? you think a couple years Iraq will rise to become a global economic and cultural power? suuuuuuuure we won't be there for a few years...its more ten years maybe even more...all i can say is good luck to all those soldiers forced to waste their lives fighting this unjust war...WOO HOO

No I am not. I was saying that it will take time to rebuild the nation of Iraq. The infrastructure, the establishment of a government, elections, the insurgency, diplomatic relations with other nations, economic treaties and agreements, etc.

I am saying that it will take time. Iraq will not be a world power but it will take time to become a respected nation in the world.

"A hero doesn't die for his country. A hero makes the other sons a bitches across the frontline die for his." -ad-libbed from patton

those are pretty powerful words. if the usa cant beat its domestic war on drugs, than how in the world are they going to win in irak?

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Originally posted by Reverend_Trance No I am not. I was saying that it will take time to rebuild the nation of Iraq. The infrastructure, the establishment of a government, elections, the insurgency, diplomatic relations with other nations, economic treaties and agreements, etc. I am saying that it will take time. Iraq will not be a world power but it will take time to become a respected nation in the world.

did you ever think of the distinct possibillity that stability in iraq will never be achieved? i for sure hope that happens so Bush and everyone who voted for him will wallow in their own demise

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Originally posted by razmataz Firstly, I don't for a second doubt their patriotism or question their struggle for their country but when you are killing increasingly more of your own citizens instead of the enemy (and for all their ostensible agenda of liberation, the U.S. are the "enemy") than somewhere along the line they have lost the plot.

Neither does US army differentiate whom they kill and they killed way, way more. Do these generals think they will be embraced after leveling all the cities while appropriating all the resources (oil) and installing foreign puppets to rule over them?
Iraqis have lots of bitterness so they will act to any perceived injustice and there is a lot of it.

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Originally posted by razmataz Secondly, this battle isnt as clear cut as the locals versus the invaders. Different ethnic and religious factions (mainly Shia versus Sunni) are trying to seize upon the opportunity to increase their future stake in an Iraqi nation.

Well they don't have any power now over their lives. They have exiled puppets ruling over them and american administration plotting how to exploit all the oil reserves.

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Originally posted by razmataz On top of that, an increasing number of these insurgents are non-Iraqis which would explain the high number of Iraqi casualties as the foreigners don't distinguish Iraqis who have not only betrayed the cause of "Iraq" but also (more shocking in their eyes) their religion by co-operating with the U.S.

I believe the number of foreigners is exegerrated. There is some but nothing significant. Less than 5% is what I read. I believe these Iraqis have various reasons to rebel and one of them is certainly animosity to foreign rule. Iraqis have been bombed for more than 10 years so they have plenty of pent up anger built in such that even minimal infraction real or perceived can set them off .

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Originally posted by razmataz I don't see the U.S. pulling out. The prospect of having a chaotic anarchy in the Middle East and the formation of another rogue Taliban style state is too worrisome not just for the U.S. but for the whole of the Middle East. Also, a simple payoff analysis would suggest that it is no coincidence that Iraq has the 2nd largest oil supplies after Saudi Arabia.

I don't see US winning either. They can't imprison 20 million people and many agitators from outside who are clamouring to fight against american occupation. US picked a wrong neighborhood to invade as Iraq is not only a big country with hostile population with nothing to lose and lots of anger but is surrounded by equaly hostile nations . All the empires of the past perished by overstretching themselves and being beligerrant and ignoarant and American empire might just share that faith in Iraq. America will always be an economical power but it may just suffer a moral and military defeat it can not sustain in the desserts of Iraq.
How soon after that will the exit strategy come about?

I fail to see how pumping a third world country full of vaporized depleted uranium is ever going to help them reach stability.

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I've never been able to eat a whole baby.
Kill the women. Eat the children.
It's just one of those days where you want to bend over everyone you know and kiss their ass goodbye with a big sideways boot.

Latest Mix

If the "insurgency" is all about american aggression then why are christian churches being bombed in Iraq?? It seems clear to me that muslims all over the world have launched a jihad against all other major religions and try to use excuses such as western aggression so as to divide the most powerful nations and prevent their leaders from using the necessary force to put an end to it. They're doing a pretty good job of it...

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"men must either be caressed or else annihilated; they will revenge themselves for small injuries, but cannot do so for great ones; the injury therefore that we do to a man must be such that we need not fear his revenge."- Macchiavelli

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Originally posted by erdega etc. etc.

I think you missed the gist of my post and that is insurgents are killing FAR MORE Iraqis than Americans. Everytime I read about a suicide attack or ambush I hear about 5-10 Iraqi deaths and possibly the odd Coalition soldier here and there. I don't know the exact statistics but I did read somewhere that insurgent attacks take an estimated 11 Iraqi lives for every Coalition casualty.

Quite clearly there is no clear strategy for line of attack and it is just a hotbed of bedlam on the ground. In my eyes its not an insurgency any more; its a civil war.

For the sake of the common Iraqi person I do not want the Coalition to leave before order is settled. There is only one thing that is worse than a puppet government in Iraq and that's the possibility of the establishment of another extremist government in the mold of the Taliban in Afghanistan. There is enough malicious sentiment towards the West, weapons caches, and general disorder for such a party to take power.

Guerilla warfare rarely follows any set path..there are no rules of engagement by its very nature..as for 11 casualties for every coalition soldier killed are you including the estimated 100,000 iraqi people killed by the coalition forces since the war began

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Originally posted by razmataz I think you missed the gist of my post and that is insurgents are killing FAR MORE Iraqis than Americans. Everytime I read about a suicide attack or ambush I hear about 5-10 Iraqi deaths and possibly the odd Coalition soldier here and there. I don't know the exact statistics but I did read somewhere that insurgent attacks take an estimated 11 Iraqi lives for every Coalition casualty. Quite clearly there is no clear strategy for line of attack and it is just a hotbed of bedlam on the ground. In my eyes its not an insurgency any more; its a civil war.

I guess you don't read then just how many US army kills on daily basis. It's ok cause they cover it well and we can only guess.
As far as inter iraqi conflict, we can only assume that there is a power struggle between various groups. It's even conceivable that they are turned against each other in a classical imperial trick of divide and concquer.

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Originally posted by razmataz For the sake of the common Iraqi person I do not want the Coalition to leave before order is settled. There is only one thing that is worse than a puppet government in Iraq and that's the possibility of the establishment of another extremist government in the mold of the Taliban in Afghanistan. There is enough malicious sentiment towards the West, weapons caches, and general disorder for such a party to take power.

Ironic thing is that during Saddam's rule there was no such thing as al qaida (despite the false claims by Bush & Co as a reason for invasion) or any other islamist terror group because for one he was secular and didn't tolerate rise of such groups. While under american rule there are all kinds of these groups united in a move to reject american occupation.

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Fifty-two people were killed and 142 wounded in Najaf after a car bomber plowed his vehicle into a funeral procession and exploded it yards from the city's Imam Ali shrine, Gov. Adnan Zurfi said Monday.

and this is a resistance how?

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