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Originally posted by wolverine16 I've discussed the U.S. because the original story that started the thread was related to issues here, but yeah, I'd like to hear any perspecitves anyone has. I doubt my long rants will convince any of the conservatives as their will likewise to the liberals, but there's got to be other perspectives that might find some common ground.

Im trying to make a general point..not about you or this thread..i think more discussions on here should probably be in a broader context..there are many europeans here that wont understand the ins and outs of american politics nor the health care system that america employs..perhaps the discussion should be about "Has the American health care system failed" or "Are european healthcare systems better models for future care" etc etc

I was on one of the european forums today..regional forums..and basically they were bitching that the PDD forum seems to deal with exclusively american politics and that was interesting..and then i thought ye we do talk alot about american politics.

Having said that ive never seen one of them in here.

Just a point..ok enough bitchin.

btw just D/L your latest mix from your site...maybe more bitchin to come huh...LOL

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Originally posted by BadBadNeil Since you are into medicine can you answer a question that I don't understand (my girlfriend is a nurse but doesn't work in certain areas). I went for an MRI. Now the machine cost probably a few million dollars and the technician probably makes about $60K-100K a year but when you factor in that the test takes 15 minutes, is printed on the spot, and there are so many people that have used the device that is has probably been paid for 10 times over, why do they still charge hundreds and hundreds of dollars for something that lasts 15 minutes and requires no professional? I think there are things in healthcare that seem overinflated costs wise and is contributing to the rediculous costs.

That MRI payed for many more people that just the tech. There was a radiologist who looked at it, then maybe a few other doctors to conference the results with. Nurses and nurse's aids who helped with the testing and aftermath, all the way down to janitors got paid from that MRI. Then there are maintenance costs, rent, electricity etc. And then, depending on where it was done, you have to pay for the people that didn't pay for their MRI. If it was done at a hospital, that was the case, if it was done in a private clinic, then you're paying for those costs and the convenience.

Hope that makes sense.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono That MRI payed for many more people that just the tech. There was a radiologist who looked at it, then maybe a few other doctors to conference the results with. Nurses and nurse's aids who helped with the testing and aftermath, all the way down to janitors got paid from that MRI. Then there are maintenance costs, rent, electricity etc. And then, depending on where it was done, you have to pay for the people that didn't pay for their MRI. If it was done at a hospital, that was the case, if it was done in a private clinic, then you're paying for those costs and the convenience. Hope that makes sense.

That is the thing, the radiologist and no one else looked at it, I went to a specialist who I paid another few hundred dollars to, to look at the MRI for 15 minutes, to say yup you have a herniated disk, and there is nothing we can do, and then sent me on my merry way.

Yeah I had the first done at a private medical clinic, the second MRI was at a hospital.

I can't help but feel screwed, the loud clicking and the 1960's music playing in the headphones while trying not to scratch my nose for 15 minutes wasn't nearly as fun as I thought it'd be

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Originally posted by NeoPhono First is that medicine is a technology field. As technology becomes more advanced, and everyone wants only the "latest and greatest," costs go up, not down. If you want a top of the line computer today, you're going to pay premium prices, if you want a top of the line computer from 5 years ago, you won't. However, when it comes to medicine everyone wants the best, there is no "5 year old" option. We could give everyone cutting-edge 1970's medicine at wonderfully low costs, but people want 2005 medicine.

You have some good, realistic points. My argument is with the practice of healthcare. What if the research and technology aspects were for profit and the practice was not? In other words, if we have profit generating our advancements and in treatment we have a plan that insures all in getting use of those technologies in practice? If we put the same money we are spending currently in private HMOs into a healthcare system that covered all Americans and thus cut down the administrative costs greatly, you could maintain the wages of doctors and staff and would have some money that could help pay for some of the currently uninsured.

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Originally posted by zig Im trying to make a general point..not about you or this thread..i think more discussions on here should probably be in a broader context..there are many europeans here that wont understand the ins and outs of american politics nor the health care system that america employs..perhaps the discussion should be about "Has the American health care system failed" or "Are european healthcare systems better models for future care" etc etc I was on one of the european forums today..regional forums..and basically they were bitching that the PDD forum seems to deal with exclusively american politics and that was interesting..and then i thought ye we do talk alot about american politics. Having said that ive never seen one of them in here. Just a point..ok enough bitchin. btw just D/L your latest mix from your site...maybe more bitchin to come huh...LOL

I would love to discuss some European politics, so I really wish they'd stop by here. I wouldn't know where to begin a discussion, but I'd join in...

Thanks for checking out my stuff, just keep in mind I'm still learning

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Thurs May 15: Influence @ Tini Martini w/ Kris B. vs. Nosmo, Rikler & Mike Palmeri
Thurs June 5: Under the Influence @ Tini Martini w/Mathias Matthew, Jack Kim & more TBA

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Originally posted by wolverine16 You have some good, realistic points. My argument is with the practice of healthcare. What if the research and technology aspects were for profit and the practice was not? In other words, if we have profit generating our advancements and in treatment we have a plan that insures all in getting use of those technologies in practice? If we put the same money we are spending currently in private HMOs into a healthcare system that covered all Americans and thus cut down the administrative costs greatly, you could maintain the wages of doctors and staff and would have some money that could help pay for some of the currently uninsured.

There is an assumption here is that the majority of R&D and "The Field" are on the same payroll however.
I do agree that the practice of healthcare could be better; and I'm coming from a country that has a lot of it!

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...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by wolverine16 You have some good, realistic points. My argument is with the practice of healthcare. What if the research and technology aspects were for profit and the practice was not? In other words, if we have profit generating our advancements and in treatment we have a plan that insures all in getting use of those technologies in practice? If we put the same money we are spending currently in private HMOs into a healthcare system that covered all Americans and thus cut down the administrative costs greatly, you could maintain the wages of doctors and staff and would have some money that could help pay for some of the currently uninsured.

I guess we do need to define who is making these profits.

HMOs are, to some extent, although many of those are going bankrupt, doctors are, again to some extent, although much less than they did 10-20 years go, and hospitals definitely aren't. That's why you have so many closings and consolidations. It's not good to be a hospital right now, because of the before mentioned no-pays, the administration now required to process insurance and government paperwork (there are now more hospital workers who process paperwork than take care of patients) and the constant, expensive fight with insurance companies.

The people who are making money are the people in medical R&D and drug companies. When something new comes out, hospitals clamor over the new technology in hopes that it will attract patients to bolster their poor bottom-lines. The amount companies ask for when selling these new technologies is outrageous. The other big-money makers are drug companies. Almost every other nation besides the US have laws that limit the price that can be put on prescription drugs. So when medicine comes out, America is the cash cow. US prescription drug prices are 2-10 times higher than elsewhere because we have no limits on how much they can cost and drug companies make their reserarch money back, and them some through the pockets of Americans.

So in reality, it is the R&D/Drug companies that make the profit, not the health care providers or institutions. Some private clinics are an exception.

Last edited by NeoPhono on Jan-13-2005 at 01:25

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Originally posted by NeoPhono The amount companies ask for when selling these new technologies is outrageous.

True, and they certainly do make a profit, though those profits tremendously help future R&D, not to mention the wet blanket you throw on innovation when you take the incentive away. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

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Originally posted by wolverine16 So by your standards if someone has a massive heart attack and they can't show proof that they can pay for their ER visit, just let them die?

C'mon, you know that's not how it works.

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Originally posted by Shakka C'mon, you know that's not how it works.

But then what is the dividing line between what we think government should do in terms of health care and what we find unacceptable?

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Originally posted by wolverine16 But then what is the dividing line between what we think government should do in terms of health care and what we find unacceptable?

Doctors need the right to deny care, if no care is needed. I know this sounds crazy but hold off on judgement for a second.

If a patient comes to the ER, no matter how many times they have come before in desperate attempts for drugs or attention or to get off the street or for whatever silly reason, they must be seen, costing thousands of dollars that in most cases will never be paid. I'd have to look up the exact statistics but I believe only 3% of actual emergency room visits are "emergencies" (something requiring immediate care) and only 12% are "urgencies" (requiring care in the next 12-24 hours). So, the overwhelming majority of visits are for trivial issues in need of a family practice doc costing hundreds of dollars or less per visit than an ER visit costing in the thousands.

The mentality is that ER visits are "free" for these people, in that they will never have to pay back their bills, whereas a family doc visit must be paid. This very idea of "free" health care is also what scares me the most about socialized medicine. When a person percieves something as "free" they tend to lose their restraint. If I could have "free" ice cream whenever I wanted, I'd have no problem with using it in excess, or even wasting it from time to time. The same goes for health care. If Americans begin to see their healthcare as "free," they will only increase their usage that dwarves the next country by I believe 3 times, per capita (health care spending and facility hours per person).

I realize this gives the doctor a great deal of power, but something drastic must be done to save the health care system. Also, contrary to popular belief, doctors too have a conscience and set of morals that I believe would not allow many of them to turn away someone in need...and the threat of our legal system also helps (which is a whole other issue...medicine driven by the fear of legal recourse and not need). Put the responsibility of administering care back into the hands of health care providers, not the whims of the patient.

Exactly. And I'd much rather trust the opinion of a qualified doctor who has completed the rigors of acquiring his expertise over some typical governmental beaurocrat when it comes to issues of my own personal health and well being.