quote:

Originally posted by 3xx3r7 In many states, like Florida, sales tax is the largest level of income. 7% may sound little, but seven percent from almost every transaction combined together is a whole lot.

And I don't disagree. My point was that to say that the average illegal immigrant is minding his business and paying taxes is a bit of a misrepresentation of the truth. 7% is better than nothing, but it absolutely pales in comparison when you look at it in the bigger picture of our total tax liability.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka And I don't disagree. My point was that to say that the average illegal immigrant is minding his business and paying taxes is a bit of a misrepresentation of the truth. 7% is better than nothing, but it absolutely pales in comparison when you look at it in the bigger picture of our total tax liability.

Who's benefiting is the companies that hire them, they pay them bad wages that no one here could imagine raising their family on. Bush's immigration stance that anger's many conservatives is really a boone for companies that hire illegals. I think that most illegal immigrants employed in the U.S. wouldn't make enough to surpass tax exempt status on their income anyway. We'd get a lot more revenue if companies like Tyco didn't lie and say they're not American to avoid paying any taxes. That's the biggest thing that's shifted the tax burden onto average Americans since WWII.

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quote:

Originally posted by wolverine16 Who's benefiting is the companies that hire them, they pay them bad wages that no one here could imagine raising their family on. Bush's immigration stance that anger's many conservatives is really a boone for companies that hire illegals. I think that most illegal immigrants employed in the U.S. wouldn't make enough to surpass tax exempt status on their income anyway. We'd get a lot more revenue if companies like Tyco didn't lie and say they're not American to avoid paying any taxes. That's the biggest thing that's shifted the tax burden onto average Americans since WWII.

I'm not sure I understand your point. This is quite the divergence from the conversation I was having with Biznology where I stated that most illegal immigrants most likely aren't paying taxes like everyone else(aside from sales tax, since it is not traceable to any SSN or address).

However, even at minimum wage, working 40 hours a week, a person is probably taking home about $11,000 per year gross, which paltry as it may be, is above the minimum tax threshold, unless I am mistaken. In any event, not making enough money should not be used as an excuse not to play by the rules.

And btw, you're lying when you say Tyco doesn't pay taxes. What you hopefully meant to say is that they don't pay all of their taxes at the full U.S. rate because they are incorporated in Bermuda. There's a big difference between paying no taxes, paying an average 27% tax rate, and paying a 35% tax rate. Not to mention that many companies pay a lower tax rate than the 35% rate because a large portion of their sales take place internationally(like Tyco), and therefore those sales are subjected to the tax rate of the international destination where the revenues are generated.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka I'm not sure I understand your point. This is quite the divergence from the conversation I was having with Biznology where I stated that most illegal immigrants most likely aren't paying taxes like everyone else(aside from sales tax, since it is not traceable to any SSN or address). However, even at minimum wage, working 40 hours a week, a person is probably taking home about $11,000 per year gross, which paltry as it may be, is above the minimum tax threshold, unless I am mistaken. In any event, not making enough money should not be used as an excuse not to play by the rules. And btw, you're lying when you say Tyco doesn't pay taxes. What you hopefully meant to say is that they don't pay all of their taxes at the full U.S. rate because they are incorporated in Bermuda. There's a big difference between paying no taxes, paying an average 27% tax rate, and paying a 35% tax rate. Not to mention that many companies pay a lower tax rate than the 35% rate because a large portion of their sales take place internationally(like Tyco), and therefore those sales are subjected to the tax rate of the international destination where the revenues are generated.

People making $11,000 a year supporting a family would not be paying federal income taxes, even if they were citizens. They'd also be entitled to use a lot of government programs, so it's actually a benefit for business and government the way it is. There are some taxes that they would pay if citizens, but nowhere near what the average American does.

Tyco uses the offshore loophole, like many other corporations do to avoid paying what they should owe in taxes. It's no secret they're really an American company. It's technically legal and does not shelter them from paying all U.S. taxes they should, but I would say a lot more unethical and at a far greater cost to the country. It's had a huge impact on shifting the tax burden onto American workers, because corporations today pay much less of the percentage of overall tax revenue than they did 50 years ago, despite continued economic growth.

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quote:

Originally posted by wolverine16 Tyco uses the offshore loophole, like many other corporations do to avoid paying what they should owe in taxes. It's no secret they're really an American company. It's technically legal and does not shelter them from paying all U.S. taxes they should, but I would say a lot more unethical and at a far greater cost to the country. It's had a huge impact on shifting the tax burden onto American workers, because corporations today pay much less of the percentage of overall tax revenue than they did 50 years ago, despite continued economic growth.

I'm not defending them, but when the board of directors proposed moving their headquarters back to the U.S., the shareholders loudly rejected the proposal, so surely a lot of blame lies in the hands of the investors--not solely in the hands of Tyco brass.

And if an illegal immigrant is sponging off entitlement programs that are paid for by U.S. tax payers, and intended for U.S. citizens--doesn't it bother you in the slightest that you'd be paying an undue tax burden to subsidize someone who shouldn't even be here in the first place? But I agree--if they were citizens, they would share more public responsibilities and I'd be much more content knowing that at least my tax dollars aren't being spent on illegal alien entitlement programs.

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Originally posted by Shakka Correct me if I'm mistaken, but the average illegal immigrant is probably paying no taxes at all(since he/she would have no SSN and aren't registered with the government, paying taxes would amount to nothing less than a mea culpa). I think that represents a big part of the problem.

In theory, it would be true, but in reality it's not. Did you know that if you go to Columbia Rd in Washington DC, you can buy a SSC for 60 dollars?? Might not be their own number but the money is going somewhere. People that use a fake SSC don't claim their taxes at the beginning of the year like everybody else because of fear of being caught (since it's not their number in the first place- that's the extra bucks the country gets around April)
Also, some workers that get paid under the table but want to pay taxes get a Tax ID number to be able to prove to Immigration (now Homeland Security) at some point that they've been paying taxes.

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Originally posted by claudits In theory, it would be true, but in reality it's not. Did you know that if you go to Columbia Rd in Washington DC, you can buy a SSC for 60 dollars?? Might not be their own number but the money is going somewhere. People that use a fake SSC don't claim their taxes at the beginning of the year like everybody else because of fear of being caught (since it's not their number in the first place- that's the extra bucks the country gets around April) Also, some workers that get paid under the table but want to pay taxes get a Tax ID number to be able to prove to Immigration (now Homeland Security) at some point that they've been paying taxes.

Interesting. Do you have any stats that might indicate how pervasive this is? A few thousand or a few million?

I remember when I used to work on a golf course back in the day...one of the Mexicans on the grounds crew actually had a pretty sophisticated setup to make fake IDs for the immigrant workers. We tried to use our connection to get fake IDs for ourselves, though it never panned out for us.

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Originally posted by Trancer-X Well, maybe you should go and study up on the ways of the former Soviet Union and their internal passport system. You seem so vocal about everything that I post here, yet you also want me to hand feed you information that you should probably be researching on your own. I'm personally not about to consent to the further destruction of my Constitutional rights by a co-opted government that intends to systematically destroy each and every one of them. We already have Social Security numbers which are being used for much greater than their originally intended purpose.

That would be because you continuely bring up arguements I have a hard time swallowing yet you figure everyone should just accept them as status quo.
Like this one where we're are comparing two completely different political systems like they were of the same ilk, a terror state and a state under terror.
I guess having a driver's license must really be a really harrowing experience then.
Wait, what about that Blockbuster card!
(I know for a fact that the first thing those communist P.I.s look for when doing skiptracing are Blockbuster memberships).

I'm being facetious of course but my point is when someone is questioning the logic of an agruement, save the knee-jerked reaction of name-calling for the kids in the playground.
I may seem to be riding you but I'm only curious where the argument will go; devil's advocate if you will.
I'm not totally devoid of the arguements being displayed (and yes, I do try and do my homework before replying) so please excuse me if I'm not the consimate Poli-Sci bookworm.
However most issues here aren't logic based (god knows some of you must breath politics) but of mindset and you know what? That's all right, but before butting heads take a step back and have some empathy.

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The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Last edited by Fir3start3r on Feb-11-2005 at 00:04

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Correct me if I'm mistaken, but the average illegal immigrant is probably paying no taxes at all(since he/she would have no SSN and aren't registered with the government, paying taxes would amount to nothing less than a mea culpa). I think that represents a big part of the problem.

This is one of the biggest/worst perceptions of the mainly educated illegal inmigrants, as a matter of fact, a huge portion of them have come here, created a business, and after 9/11, the US gov't has used everything on it's hands to classify the inmigrants as terrorits, have gotten extensions and visas denied, and therefore, what should they rather do?!?!.. Go back to their country with nothing, or stay here illegally?!?!.. this is the most common thing, there is a huge portion thave have come here to invest and pump up the economy. There's also a huge portion of currently illegal inmigrants who DO pay taxes, who do have SSN ( there were ways to get a SSN prior to 9.11 through many ways ) .. and this individuals do pay the taxes, and dont get it back ( this prob. one of the reasons why the US gov't does not DEPORT them in masses, the US economy would crumble. There is also the workers, mainly the Central American's who go and work on the fields.. the big work-force behind all the food on the supermarkets.

Secondly, do you guys KNOW how much it would cost to invest into all the new machinery, training on every driver license center of the country?!?!... they are making regular workers work as an Inmigrant officer... there are many drawbacks on this one card.. and is definetly not a solution. The best solution would be having all illegal inmigrants get this one card as well ( therefore the gov't KNOWS whose in the country ).. without punishing them, or else, it would just keep them underground, think about this, there are more then 15 million illegal inmigrants.. and the Bush team is doing nothing about, and this would just make it terribly worst.

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quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Interesting. Do you have any stats that might indicate how pervasive this is? A few thousand or a few million? I remember when I used to work on a golf course back in the day...one of the Mexicans on the grounds crew actually had a pretty sophisticated setup to make fake IDs for the immigrant workers. We tried to use our connection to get fake IDs for ourselves, though it never panned out for us.

I can easily tell you this goes on for a couple of millions of desperate people that want to work..

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Another solution would probably just to make the existing systems talk together better.
Yet another database of redundant information costing untold millions could be asking for trouble when it comes down to stolen identities etc.
I'm going to guess that they're suggesting a whole new system because it would probably cost MORE to revamp the old system(s) than to just create a brand new one from scratch.
Maybe not a great solution but it could be more cost effective with less time taken as long as the process if implementation was well thought out so as to not cause bottlenecks.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."