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Originally posted by MarkT the point (again, it's being missed) is that it's not the Liberals who are being critical...so where does the "liberal high horse" crap come from?

http://www.cbc.ca/storyview/MSN/200...rtrights1040607

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Harper threat to minority rights, Martin says

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point being...that's the religious groups' problem. It doesn't affect them *at all*...marriage isn't even necessarily a religious ceremony anymore, it still has to be recognized by the state to be legal, and you can get married at city hall. I fully respect religious groups' stance on homosexuality, but they have ZERO business being involved in a LEGAL matter.

In most places, marriage is a contract between 3 parties: the husband, the wife, and the province/state. The fact is, marriage is a PUBLIC institution that affects everyone. The state's role is to ensure that the institution is preserved.

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Chruches are upset at their declining numbers and their loss of influence...that's my opinion. They're caught between a rock and a hard place...they can't "condone" homosexuality, because that goes against their teachings...but if they oppose it too openly, they risk alienating new generations of people who see their views (on other issues too) as outdated and not keeping up with the evolution of our society.

Western civilization reached its peak in the 19th century. The only thing keeping us going is technological change.

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It's a tough spot...I really don't see them serving their best interests, or the interests of their members, by loudly decrying these laws. They end up looking silly. We all agree that this isn't going to change much for the average Canadian...so why don't the opponents shut up about it?

That's pretty insulting right there, and I'm not even that religious.

Radical Secularism has itself become a religion.

And no, we DON'T all agree that it's not going to change much for the average Canadian. In fact, it will radically change society in many ways.


Always remember:

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Marriage is by nature heterosexual, for it contains a very special union between a man and a woman, a bond that gives rise to future generations through the ability of procreation. No other union shares this ability. This is not discrimination, it is reality.

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Originally posted by MarkT sorry DigiNut...again, I'm saying that's irrelevant to the issue at hand. (and WWII was 60 years ago...it's hardly the same gov't )

Seems like we're talking in circles here. You're right, the Liberals' track record isn't relevant to this particular issue, but it IS relevant to the debate that they have been conducting, because these are precisely the tactics that the Liberals themselves have been using, and everyone who has been following the debate outside of the trivial snippet that the Star took out of context knows that. You may say that two wrongs don't make a right, but in politics, when your opponent starts slinging mud at you, you can't really afford to stick to that principle.

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the gay marriage debate has nothing to do with morality...let me correct myself...it *ought* to have nothing to do with morality, yet only many opponents of it (eg. various religious organizations) are trying to bring morality into the debate. this is simply an issue of equality under the law...and in a liberal (small l), progressive society, there should be more of a laissez-faire attitude *if* the topic at hand doesn't affect you, regardless of your personal thoughts on the issue. I've said this over and over again...and NO ONE has offered a compelling counter. One does not need to support, agree with, condone, etc. gay marriage...or even homosexuality in general...they're just being asked to allow this legislation to pass. If you think it's immoral, disgusting, etc....THAT'S FINE. What's NOT fine, is actively oppposing it on those grounds because that is nothing more than imposing your own beliefs, morality, etc. onto others.

You're right, it shouldn't have anything to do with morality. I've presented many of my own non-moral arguments on the issue of gay marriage which nobody here has taken a stab at, and obviously Harper has his own take on the issue which, if you read the whole thing, is not deeply entrenched with any sort of moralizing. Conservative groups (and politicians) are not moralizing to any greater extent than the Liberal groups are - saying that it's "immoral" to allow gay marriage is no better an argument than to say it's "bigoted", "prejudiced", "homophobic" or even "insensitive" or "unfair" not to allow it. None of these address the real issue!

Everything that's been said by the Liberals (and liberals in general) so far is nothing but moralizing - the very notion of "equality" being a good thing in any intrinsic or absolute sense is 100% moralizing.

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in the context of this thread...Harper had no business bringing up those topics...irrelevant and insensitive.

I stand by my reasoning that if the Liberals are going to base their side of the debate on pitiful moralizing then Harper's comments were completely relevant and hardly insensitive. I don't know any Jews that were offended, and I don't know any Japanese that were offended. You're presenting us with typical Caucasian Guilt - the only way to find out if those comments were truly offensive is to ask the people who might have been offended.

Notice how none of the other newspapers bothered to mention this, and none of the TV news programs except for the CBC? Maybe that points to some sort of bias - or maybe they just realized it was far too trivial to make an entire news story out of. Again, this whole debate centers around a miniscule part of a really long speech, and rather than give even a modicum of attention to the rest of his speech, the hardcore hippie Left has opted to take that single quote out of context and seethe over it. Talk about spin doctoring...

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Originally posted by DigiNut Notice how none of the other newspapers bothered to mention this, and none of the TV news programs except for the CBC? Maybe that points to some sort of bias -

http://www.elections.ca/scripts/web...entity=4&lang=e

http://cbc.radio-canada.ca/htmen/directors/index.htm

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Disco and classical had sex while watching a sci-fi movie. Their child: trance.

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Originally posted by TranceGeek right, thats why our country is shit... we never gave a fuck and its coming to bite us in teh asssssss

yeah... at least we've got enough common sense and balls to stand up to something that is totally ridiculous and voice our own opinion anytime of the day or night (ie. kicking the shit out of all participants of the first and possibly the last gay pride parade ever held in the country).

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Originally posted by Crazy Serb yeah... at least we've got enough common sense and balls to stand up to something that is totally ridiculous and voice our own opinion anytime of the day or night (ie. kicking the shit out of all participants of the first and possibly the last gay pride parade ever held in the country).

dude I hope you'e kidding right?...kicking the SHIT out of so & so???? I haven't said anything here because there's so many valid poits we"re brought up here & so I'm on the middle of the road here so I can't base my opinion BUT that whole shit u post here is bullshit.I hope you are kidding.

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Originally posted by Crazy Serb yeah... at least we've got enough common sense and balls to stand up to something that is totally ridiculous and voice our own opinion anytime of the day or night (ie. kicking the shit out of all participants of the first and possibly the last gay pride parade ever held in the country).

So let me get this stright. It's takes common sense and balls(???) to kick the shit out of all the paricipants of a gay pride parade ? You're bragging about this, like it's something that Serbian people should be proud off ? Unless that was a sarcastic remark (something that i certainly didn't pick up from your post) i'd have to say you've certainly got some issues you need to seek professional help to resolve. If asked, i'd say no to gay 'marriage' but resorting to violence to get your point across speaks volumes for the level of intolerance in the society of which you speak.

Do you guys also stone women who cheat on their husbands where you come from ?

Vocing an opinion about something ridiculous is not the same as kicking the shit out of someone. I hope by the time people get done flamming your sorry ass you realize there's a fundamental difference between speaking your mind, and stomping some poor guy cause he's gay.

One is the course of action taken by adults. The other, a cowardly act by a gang of homophobic thugs.

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Last edited by Kytracid on Feb-20-2005 at 14:29

no, i wasn't kidding... and neither were those old ladies smashing some lesbians with their purses in the video I saw a while back

i really don't care what you think about me and *my* issues, but sometimes "voicing your opinion" by kicking the shit out of someone definitely gets the message across...

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One is the course of action taken by adults. The other, a cowardly act by a gang of homophobic thugs.

Yeah, I can see how far the "course of action taken by adults" has got you people... it's been years you've been arguing over this issue, and you still can't get your shit straight. or gay. or whatever.

On the other hand, a relatively old-culture highly based on certain religious values (like Serbian, out of many others) just doesn't give in that easily to a change in those values and beliefs. Point made by even "adults" voicing their disaproval of gays/lesbians (even by resorting to physical abuse) and taking care of that issue in one single day

And no, I'm not homophobic, I actually have no problem with gays (i definitely have no problem with lesbians ), as long as they keep it to themselves and don't do whatever the hell they do in my presence. I do however have a problem with someone trying to change the whole set of values and rules set ages ago and can't just settle for adding another (separate) rule and term for their own "union", and then to accomplish that they go out of their way raising all kinds of hell, spending everyone's precious time and money, displaying their sexuality like it's something special, parading around, yadda yadda yadda... fuck, makes me wonder why we don't have "straight pride" parades and stuff? have some respect and dignity for others, and if you don't like the way you're being treated, move to another country where you'll be treated much better (this is a throwback to Jay's comments ).

In regards to throwing rocks at women who cheat on their husbands, we don't do that where I come from (we haven't been raised that way, thank you very much). But I'm aware of other cultures/countries where that is very much adopted tradition, and I'm pretty sure that they have a very low "cheating" rate because of that (as I said, certain actions do tend to get a point across and set people back in their place than others).

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Last edited by Crazy Serb on Feb-20-2005 at 15:06

my god man, what's wrong with you?

could you not say anything on behalf of Serbs ever again?!

voicing your own opinion is fine, just don't feel so compelled to associate your own opinions with those of the rest of our people as you make us out into ignorant and vicious people, and while you may share those opinions with a handful of skinheads who did in fact "kick the shit out of the participants" (as you so eloquently put it), the rest of our nation's values are quite in sync with those of the rest of the civilized world...

thank you

^^^^

Letting two men get "married" and adopt children is neither civilized nor in line with our traditional values.

___________________
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Disco and classical had sex while watching a sci-fi movie. Their child: trance.

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Originally posted by TranceGeek my god man, what's wrong with you? could you not say anything on behalf of Serbs ever again?! voicing your own opinion is fine, just don't feel so compelled to associate your own opinions with those of the rest of our people as you make us out into ignorant and vicious people, and while you may share those opinions with a handful of skinheads who did in fact "kick the shit out of the participants" (as you so eloquently put it), the rest of our nation's values are quite in sync with those of the rest of the civilized world... thank you

ok, i'll try not to get you involved into these in future, mr. civilized/westernized man...

___________________

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Originally posted by ShadoWolf ^^^^ Letting two men get "married" and adopt children is neither civilized nor in line with our traditional values.

?

my comment was geared towards his detailed explanation of how Serbs seem to be a super-nation where our values seem to differ from those of the rest of world, whereas in actuality it's his own personal opinion that he's trying to impose on the rest of our people to help prove his point...

and besides, two people of the same sex getting married shouldn't even BE an issue in the first place, you are making into an issue!

you seem to be forgetting that human beings are born with something wonderful called a CHOICE