quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN it is a term used to group *advanced* liberal democracies. end of story. if the country a) has a govt voted in by the people b) has a belief in private ownership and c) is in a state of advanced industrialiastion/computerisation, then its a \"western\" nation.

Although I find this explanation quite convincing, I've got some questions as it pretty much nulls everything I had previously studied at school so, naturally, I'm utterly lost:

1. Is the Western world the same thing as Occident? If so, would it be possible to say that Japan's become an occidental country? Could Turkey be part of the west? And if in a developed China, they adopt democracy and private ownership, would China be a Western country as well? If so, what would "Orient" or "East" be?
   
   
2. If there's a "Western thought" and "Western culture", why would the definitions depend on economy and how would it embrace such different historical backgrounds (such as the French and Japanese traditional thoughts) into an umbrella term?
   
   
3. If the country:
   a) has a government voted in by the people;
   b) has a belief in private ownership;
   c) is in a state of average industralisation/computerisation,
   What would it be? India is the world's greatest democracy, believes in private ownership, yet would not be Western if all these requirements are needed, nevertheless it's possible to say that it's been as influenced by the West as Japan, with different economical results for historical reasons. Besides, the industry in countries such as India, Brazil, Mexico and Russia are not as behind as a simplistic view would portrait.
   
   
4. If a "Western" country finds itself in a situation where the democratic regime brings problems (e.g. Germany), would Germany cease to be a Western country? What if it was a "puppet" democracy, and the country was run by a certain oligarchy? And if it had a less developed technology? What's the use of such flexible term as "West" in this context?
   

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no, occident, again, is a geographical term as far as im aware (i did just have to google the definition tho ) turkey is not part of the west becoz of its lower standard of industrialisation. yes, if china developed a liberal democratic framework & proper private ownership, i would consider it a western nation (tho that might just be me).
we dont really use the term \"east\" unless we\'re using it in a geographic context. you could still be a western nation, and be part of the orient. again, i stress the \"west\" tag isnt geographic.

the expression \"western thought\" comes from the emergence of liberalism & philosophy that underpins belief structures & social/economic/political organisation.

your a/b/c example is interesting, and i dont really know the answer to be honest. been a long time since i finished uni as far as i know, theres the west, and then everything else.

yes, if a western nation comes under control of a new hitler, i would argue that it ceases to be a \"western\" nation. i might be wrong, but thats my opinion. western nations are based upon life, liberty, property (from western thought, originating in western europe). if life, liberty & property cease to underpin a given society, then i would argue they cease to be a part of the wider western world. of course this isnt something ive studied, i am merely surmising. maybe somebody out there knows a lot better than moi.

just note tho, that the term \"western\" can mean very very different things in different contexts. sometimes its relative, sometimes its geographical, or particular where something was first conceived. be wary of using it synonymously.

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to sum it up, it a poorly defined and useless term

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z to sum it up, it a poorly defined and useless term

Well, its not really useless, i donno what i would do without it

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew Well, its not really useless, i donno what i would do without it

[Really late reply since I was looking for this thread] I think it's kind of a meanigless term since it's not well defined, and therefore there doesn't seem to be any consensus on what it means and is therefore not terribly useful (I guess "useless" was a little too strong a term).[/Really late reply]

Having said that, to me "the West" or "western" means derivative of European culture without significant influences of other cultures. And since the system you live under has a heavy influence on the culture (i.e. Democracy, Anarchism, Autocracy, Oligarchy, Theocracy, Tribalism etc.), I would consider Europe, the US, Canada, & Australia to make up "the West." Japan may be more "westernized" than before, but I certainly don't think of Japan when I think of "the West," or Russia and ex-Soviet Union conutries for that matter.

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Are you consisdered part of western culture if your country is derived from a western country, ex- Argentina, Brazil, sounth American countries, etc.??

I would consider the western countries to be west Europe and everything derived from those countries. Western european began practices that many countries around the world have adopted. For example, capatalism. Many of the ways the world does buisness started in western european countries. (this isn't saying that everything we do is considered western european, just saying historically west europe has been look on as progressive in mnay ways). Eastern european countries tried to follow, and then started some new innovations that proved disastorous, like communism (although we will probably never know if an actual communist society could work because we have never actually seen one).

This innovation allowed the west euopean countries to expand and claim territories in the Americas becuase of scientific, monetary, and geographical advantages. Thus many countries were derived from them in later time, creating their own unique cultures, yet still affiliated with the west european country they derived from. So, are countries in South America considered western? Throw in your opinion, it'd be intersting to know what somebody' opinion on this is...

Last edited by OurManFlint on May-01-2006 at 07:10