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occrider
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Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

Interesting read, despite the absence of page 4 , but I’m not sure if I agree with White’s assessment. He says that what distinguishes man from all other living creatures is that nonhuman animals do not and cannot enter and participate in the world within which the human being lives. For example they would not understand the sign of the cross, that black is the color for mourning, concepts such as sin, etc. But at the same time, how does any human or child know what those symbols are? Do they not learn it through speech and mimicry? Certainly animals may not understand some advanced concepts such as mourning or religion, but they can certainly be taught that certain objects or actions represent or result in different things. What is the difference between teaching a child that black is associated with death and teaching an ape that the color black means death? A thousand years ago, before the advent of animal behaviorists, could man enter and “participate” in the world of any animals that somehow qualifies as a trait that makes humans distinct? Furthermore, if according to White, all culture is dependant on symbols than it might appear that at least one animal species has adopted symbols .

quote:

Orangutans Show Signs of Culture, Study Says

Hillary Mayell
for National Geographic News

January 3, 2003
An international group of scientists pooling more than 30 years of data has concluded that behavioral patterns among different orangutan populations show evidence of culture.

The finding pushes the origins of culture among great apes back to 14 million years ago, when orangutans and African apes last had a common ancestor. Great apes include orangutans, found only in Asia, and Africa's gorillas and chimpanzees.


Earlier studies had shown evidence of cultural learning among chimpanzees, suggesting that great ape culture had been around for at least five to seven million years. Transmission of cultural knowledge in orangutans and other great apes has implications for understanding the evolution of human culture.


Culture, which can be defined as the presence of geographically distinct behavioral variants that are maintained and transmitted through social learning, was long considered to be a uniquely human trait.

"What this study shows is that the great apes have a solid foundation of their own culture, on which humans erected their own," said Carel van Schaik, a professor of biological anthropology and anatomy at Duke University.

"This study demonstrates the richness of orangutan behavior and how the study of orangutans is important for understanding human evolution," said Cheryl Knott, an anthropologist at Harvard University and a co-author of the study. "But our ability to study and learn from these fascinating creatures is vanishing as these forests rapidly disappear with the whirr of the chainsaw."

Defining Culture

To be considered cultural elements, behaviors and practices must vary from region to region, be more common where there is more social contact within a group, and not depend on habitat.

Studying six populations of orangutans in Borneo and Sumatra, Indonesia, researchers identified 24 behaviors that show evidence of being culturally transmitted. Many of the behaviors involve tool use—using sticks to dig seeds out of fruit, to poke into tree holes to obtain insects, or to scratch—or using leaves as napkins or as gloves to protect against spiny fruit.

The authors, writing in the January 3 issue of the journal Science, suggest that variations on these behaviors found among the different populations are cultural. For instance, some populations made sounds such as "raspberries" or "kiss-squeaks" using leaves to amplify the sound, others used flat hands, others balled their hands into trumpet-like fists. Among some populations the behavior was rare or absent.

Other traits that show evidence of cultural transmission include different forms of communication and play.

Evolving Culture

Many biological anthropologists would argue that culture is an evolved human adaptation, said Knott.

An alternative explanation to culturally transmitted learning would be that each individual just figures the behavior out for itself, or that the behavior is simply an adaptation to the environment in which it lives.

"This, however, cannot explain the occurrence of 'arbitrary' signals [like kiss-squeaks]," Knott said. "Social learning must be involved to explain the transmission of such behaviors."

Some behaviors, like using a stick to dig out seeds, are so advantageous to an animal that they'd never give it up voluntarily, said van Schaik.

"On the other end of the scale there are signal variants, like the kiss-squeak on a leaf or a hand that are not that different in functionality, and can go in and out of popularity within a group," he said.


Transmitting Knowledge

Having cultural behaviors requires strong mother-infant bonds and close interaction within a group. Orangutan offspring stay with their mothers until they're seven or eight years old, but orangutans are on the lower end of the sociability scale among great apes.

"Infants and young learn most cultural knowledge from their mothers, but if that was the only way of learning you'd have as much individual variability as you have matrilineal lines," said van Schaik. "You wouldn't see this checkerboard pattern across populations that we're seeing."

The researchers found that sites closest to one another showed more behavioral similarities than with more distant sites.

"Also, we found the biggest behavioral repertoires within sites that showed the most social contact, thus giving the animals the greatest opportunity to learn from one another," said van Schaik.

Facing Extinction

Orangutans once ranged throughout Southeast Asia, and may have numbered in the hundreds of thousands. Today they are found only in Borneo and Sumatra, and are listed as critically endangered by the World Conservation Union. Increasing population pressure—100 years ago 10 million people lived in Indonesia; today that number is close to 220 million—illegal logging, slash-and-burn agricultural practices, and civil unrest all pose threats to the orangutan.

Conservationists estimate there may be as few as 15,000 orangutans left living in the wild.

"We're losing the race against time—just as we discover how to study the roots of human culture, we're losing the tools," said van Schaik.

"At new sites we find new things; there is enormous cultural variation between populations, and we're losing it. You cannot protect one population and discover the whole cultural phenomenon," he said. "And even if somehow you could restore the forest and the animals, just as with human cultures, once a culture is gone, it's gone."


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Old Post May-04-2005 18:25  United States
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Subey
Her Soul Mate



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: The corner where 'l' resolves into '<'

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
So than babies are not “human” until they develop the mental capacity to distinguish objects? Furthermore, doesn’t that quote from her merely reference her discovery of language, not the discovery of distinguishing one object from another? If she couldn’t distinguish one object from another than she wouldn’t have been able to eat (or would have been content with eating inanimate objects), she wouldn’t have been able to dress herself (or would have tried to wear a chair or something), she wouldn’t have been able to recognize that fire is hot, and so forth. She always had the sense of touch; I would assume that she had the mental recognizance to differentiate shape through touch in as much as any other human has that ability through sight. Therefore I’m not quite sure how she “acquired” her humanity in a way that is any different from any other human. Furthermore, I’m not entirely sure how this ability to distinguish objects is in anyway different from behavior exhibited by animals.


In my mention of objects I ommited a word, which changed the meaning of the sentence. Obviously she could distinguish between literal ojbects, so there is no need to cite multiple examples of why that doesn't make sense. All would agree. The word I ommitted was "referencing" , as in "no concept of referencing objects".

I'm honestly somewhat confused as to your argument. I will try to reword it to see if I understand the point you are offering us.

A chimpanzee can operate with symbols, and therefore distinctions between what it means to be human an an animal are not so great?

The problem with this is it belies the fundamental understanding of plateaus within development. Take human children. It has been shown that at a young age, if you have a hill, and you place different things on both sides, and then you walk the child around, showing them this fact. And then you ask the child "what would someone see if they were standing on the otherside of this hill?", that the child answers with what they can see from their current perspetive. Even though they've just walked around the hill and seen that its different on the other side.

The point being that at this plateau the child's cognition is limited. The child can use symbols. Chimpanzee's can use symbols. But the world of cognition that opens up as the child advances from plateau to plateau is a world that only humans have access to. The fact that yes symbols are used at each plateau may make the plateaus appear similar but that is because of the potential of symbols, and not the potential of chimpanzees.


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Last edited by Subey on May-05-2005 at 02:27

Old Post May-04-2005 19:05 
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by Subey

I'm honestly somewhat confused as to your argument. I will try to reword it to see if I understand the point you are offering us.


Simply that I don't really like the argument of "symbols" as what separates humans from animals. Even if an individual were completely isolated and separated from society, and didn’t use symbols in any way whatsoever, does that mean that individual is not a human until he started using symbols? I dunno, I think I would use something else like the ability to rationalize or perhaps the ability to distinguish “right” from “wrong”.


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Old Post May-04-2005 19:46  United States
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kush paintings
Balance 005 Romantic



Registered: Jun 2004
Location:

See, the human in all his life would not be human at all, or at least in my not physicality. He would not be able to use symbols, because he never learned any. Therefore, he would have the mind of an animal, but a body of a human. This actually would be a very interesting study, although it could never happen.

quote:
Do they not learn it through speech and mimicry?


Yes. Yes, they do. Your choice of words is very suiting, however. Mimic. An animal can mimic a human action, even emotion. However, they do not know the human meaning of the emotion. In your previous example of the cows getting excited that "they solved the puzzle", I think it would be more reasonable to assume they were simply going to eat. Finding a way to eat wasn't viewed as some puzzle, rather a way to get food. The point of the article is that animals and deaf mutes (before they have learned anything) cannot establish the meanign behind the object.

Actually its funny that page 4 didnt come out, because it deals with this. I must apologize for that I could have sworn I put all of them up and I will go add that now. Here is an exerpt, "Helen confused the word signs for "mug" and "water" because, apparently, both were associated with drinking."


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Last edited by kush paintings on May-04-2005 at 20:59

Old Post May-04-2005 20:53  United States
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Subey
Her Soul Mate



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: The corner where 'l' resolves into '<'

quote:
Originally posted by kush paintings

Primates can be taught sign language, thus they can use symbols.

If you try to differentiate animals from humans on that basis alone you will be unable to. The article was written in 1949, I assume long before anyone had attempted to teach primates ASL, and as the book denotes it is considered a "classic" piece.

The value of the article then isn't in the argument that symbols are the realm of humans alone, that portion is archaic, but rather that the human mastery of symbols (as proven by the ease with with you can translate these black marks into letters, then words then sentences etc.)is the foundation that allows us to build a civilisation that can span the stars instead of just a tribe that spans a river.


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Old Post May-05-2005 03:20 
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by kush paintings
See, the human in all his life would not be human at all, or at least in my not physicality. He would not be able to use symbols, because he never learned any. Therefore, he would have the mind of an animal, but a body of a human. This actually would be a very interesting study, although it could never happen.


In that case than I definetely don't like White's interpretation of what distinguishes humans from animals. I simply don't think he makes a strong enough case, particularly when it comes to defining culture as descended from symbolism. But perhaps I am biased because of White's views on cultural evolution:

http://www.aaanet.org/gad/history/088white2.pdf

To me humanity is not something acquired but an innate cognitive quality.

quote:

Yes. Yes, they do. Your choice of words is very suiting, however. Mimic. An animal can mimic a human action, even emotion. However, they do not know the human meaning of the emotion. In your previous example of the cows getting excited that "they solved the puzzle", I think it would be more reasonable to assume they were simply going to eat. Finding a way to eat wasn't viewed as some puzzle, rather a way to get food. The point of the article is that animals and deaf mutes (before they have learned anything) cannot establish the meanign behind the object.


But a child's education is completely based on mimicry. Human behavior is based on mimicry. I learn what something is through education and mimicry and I retain that knowledge to use a means of some form of communication or gain. Similarly some animals learn that certain things signify something and thus they retain that knowledge to attain something. However, what about the evidence of culture developed in chimpanzees? Groups of chimps have specfic forms of communication that have no practical purpose that vary between social groups. They symbolize something, does that make them human? My answer would be no which is why I don't like the symbolism argument.


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Last edited by occrider on May-05-2005 at 04:09

Old Post May-05-2005 03:30  United States
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas

Look, I'm too brain-exhausted to write, not to mention actually read this thread from post 1 and think about the words you guys are putting in here. But I did read Occrider's post where he disputes that animals and humans are different in cultural learning (i.e. the post above)...

Not that I necessairly disagree with that, but since we are on the subject of philosophy this question has intrigued me very much:


(Why) are humans the only animal that cries and laughs?


I mean in the emotional state, I know apes and hyennas laugh, but is it laughter? caused by happines? because an ape told a joke or just like any other noise coming out of his mouth...

I don't know of any animal that cries though...


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Old Post May-05-2005 03:58  Israel
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by Yoepus
Look, I'm too brain-exhausted to write, not to mention actually read this thread from post 1 and think about the words you guys are putting in here. But I did read Occrider's post where he disputes that animals and humans are different in cultural learning (i.e. the post above)...

Not that I necessairly disagree with that, but since we are on the subject of philosophy this question has intrigued me very much:


(Why) are humans the only animal that cries and laughs?


I mean in the emotional state, I know apes and hyennas laugh, but is it laughter? caused by happines? because an ape told a joke or just like any other noise coming out of his mouth...

I don't know of any animal that cries though...


Well I just did a quick search that kind of looked into the argument. Essentially it is impossible to verify emotional tears, but animals apparentely do "cry" or express distress in certain situations:

http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20030313.html


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Old Post May-05-2005 04:14  United States
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
Well I just did a quick search that kind of looked into the argument.


Hmm thanks for the link.

quote:
Essentially it is impossible to verify emotional tears, but animals apparentely do "cry" or express distress in certain situations:


Ya, this one always mistified me. We can observe emotion in animals - obviously when a dog wags his tail he is happy, and I can tell when my cats back home for instance are excited (or pissed) to see me, when they are tired, happy, sad, etc.

Obviously animals "cry" without tears - but the human type of crying is much different. Its one thing to see animals cry, another for them to shed a tear, yet another for them to a shed a tear from distress, and yet a completely other thing to shed tears of joy.

just gets you wonderin...


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Old Post May-05-2005 04:40  Israel
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

Well it got me curious and I found a few more articles:

http://www.salon.com/health/feature...ears/print.html
http://www.signonsandiego.com/union...1c16crying.html

It's interesting how emotional tears produce far more proteins and mineral content than other tears. If other animals have different ways of expressing "sadness" do that expressions serve some kind of evolutionary purpose in aiding the animal? What is the significance of human crying that results in a different composition than other tears? What's the purpose? Good question ...

Edit: and as for laughing this is what I found:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4401695.stm

Better article:

http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/m...on/11280248.htm


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Last edited by occrider on May-05-2005 at 04:55

Old Post May-05-2005 04:49  United States
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kush paintings
Balance 005 Romantic



Registered: Jun 2004
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Thank you for the replies to the subject matter, of humans vs. animals. You have actually clarified a number of things for me.


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Old Post May-05-2005 15:02  United States
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