quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley What about residents who break the law? Dont you think there is a possibility that what pursuades immigrants to commit crimes might be exactly the same thing that pursuades residents to commit crimes?

Absolutely, and that was my point.
If I had done the same here in Toronto, I wouldn't expect the law to treat me any different than someone who had just come "off the boat".

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

in the uk, (maybe just scotland, but i think the whole uk) they have changed the name of these honour killings to something with murder in the name, to reflect the change in attitude theyre taking towards them..so i think people are wising up to the issue. i read somthing by some police chief dated summer 2004, that they didnt even know that such crimes were going on! as attitudes of the rest of society change, so too will those of the immigrants as you like to call them..plus as cultural asimilation occurs, old practices which are disapproved by the Western values, will gradually be eroded.

"honor killing" what a fucked up belief.

quote:

It only became big news when a group of 14-year-old Turkish boys mocked Hatin during a class discussion at a school near the crime scene. One boy said, "She only had herself to blame," while another insisted, "She deserved what she got. The whore lived like a German." The enraged school director not only sent a letter home to parents, but also to teachers across Germany. The letter ignited a media fury. Less known, however, is that the letter also hit a nerve among educators. "Teachers from across the country wrote back saying they had had similar experiences," Boehmecke said. They reported Turkish boys taunting Turkish girls who don't wear headscarves as "German sluts." "That's the part no one has written about. Clearly there is huge potential for similar violence across Germany," Boehmecke said. "Not just in the big cities, but all over. It's a problem many politicians haven't been willing to face."

quote:

The study showed that 49 percent of Turkish women said they had experienced physical or sexual violence in their marriage.

terrible

Last edited by josh4 on May-15-2005 at 17:27

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Absolutely, and that was my point. If I had done the same here in Toronto, I wouldn't expect the law to treat me any different than someone who had just come "off the boat".

I dont think they do think they will be treated any differently! But people tend not to let whatever the consequences of their crime (ie punishment) bother them otherwise they wouldnt commit the crime would they?

quote:

Originally posted by svens_bath in the uk, (maybe just scotland, but i think the whole uk) they have changed the name of these honour killings to something with murder in the name, to reflect the change in attitude theyre taking towards them..so i think people are wising up to the issue. i read somthing by some police chief dated summer 2004, that they didnt even know that such crimes were going on! as attitudes of the rest of society change, so too will those of the immigrants as you like to call them..plus as cultural asimilation occurs, old practices which are disapproved by the Western values, will gradually be eroded.

Trust me "honour killings" have never ever been considered anything BUT murder in the UK!

quote:

Female Afghan TV host shot dead Clerics criticized her western-friendly style KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) -- A ground-breaking Afghan television host whose Western style drew praise from youthful fans and condemnation from Muslim clerics may have been slain with involvement from her own brothers, police have said. Shaima Rezayee, 24, who tossed aside her burqa for Western dress and became a host on an MTV-style music show, knew her life was in danger, according to a radio interview she gave not long before she was shot in the head at her Kabul home Wednesday. Her slaying highlights the struggle between urban young people and their conservative elders for the future of Afghanistan and its Islamic values. Television and radio stations like the one that featured Rezayee -- often importing music and styles from other countries -- have been leaders in probing the boundaries of acceptability. Rezayee, like other young Afghan women, was denied schooling and forced to wear the burqa in public until the Taliban regime was ousted by the U.S. invasion in late 2001. The Taliban also banned music -- even humming on the street. Investigator: Her brothers will be questioned In the years since, several private television and radio stations have started broadcasting. Many operate under tight security, well aware of criticism from religious leaders who oppose women in Western dress, women working or women singing publicly. The station that featured Rezayee, Tolo TV, has in particular drawn fire. In March the country's council of Islamic scholars criticized Tolo and other stations for transmitting "programs opposed to Islam and national values." Tolo TV executives dismissed Rezayee that same month under pressure from conservative clerics. Her hour-long show, "Hop," showed videos of Western singers such as Madonna, as well as Turkish and Iranian pop stars. The casual chat between male and female announcers on Rezayee's show also drew reproach. Marriages are still mostly arranged in Afghanistan, and some regard as suspect even conversation between men and women who are not related. Soon after she was dismissed, Rezayee said in a radio interview that she had heard rumors someone wanted to kill her, possibly because of the show. Tolo TV was the brainchild of an Afghan who returned to his homeland from Australia after the fall of the Taliban and first opened Radio Arman, an extremely popular station. Rezayee was the first journalist to be killed in Afghanistan since the end of the U.S.-led invasion in 2001 which ousted the Taliban regime, according to Reporters Without Borders. "This horrible murder proves that press freedom still cannot be taken for granted in Afghanistan," the Paris-based group said, calling for a thorough investigation and concrete measures by President Hamid Karzai to support free expression. Jamil Khan, head of the criminal investigation department for Kabul police, declined to comment on a possible motive for the killing, but said police would question Rezayee's two brothers after mourning ceremonies conclude early next week. "We suspect family members may be involved in the murder," he said. He didn't elaborate and relatives could not be immediately reached for comment. Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Find this article at: http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/m...v.ap/index.html

quote:

Rezayee, like other young Afghan women, was denied schooling

Im so glad to be a women growing up in a country that doesnt deny such things as simple as an education.

quote:

Originally posted by kush paintings Not at all. In this case, though, yes.

Islam doesn'tindtruct you to kill your wife/daughter if she wants to live a western lifestyle you ignorant fuck.

EDIT: Pardon me for being too harsh but I'm really fucking sick of people assuming that every fucked up thing an arab does HAS to be related to Islam and is instructd to do so by the religion.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Svens, you make it sound like it's their own fault things like these are happening. Yes, I agree it's more a cultural than a religious thing, but that is totally irrelevant. It's easy for you who have normal and tolerant parents, and accesss to everything you wish for to say such crap that these women should have known better, and that they shouldn't have interfered in their local traditions. I'd like to see you say something like that when you'd get a slap on the face every time you try to voice your opinion, regardless of whether it's right or not. The fact of the matter is that these women were, unlike you, deprived of their intrinsic rights as human beings from the day they were born. FFS, the woman was forced to marry her cousin at 16. She couldn't have known what she was getting in to, as you intelligently suggested, and even if she did, she had no choice whatsoever. Move away you say? To where? Fleeing your home is not really an insignificant thing. Especially if you consider that these women were opressed their entire lives, taught that they were inferior, and probably had no access to quality education (if any). So what do you do when you flee from home and start to get hungry and dirty and sleep on the street? What, go to a hotel and get a high paying job untill you find a nice 300m^2 villa on the Azure coast to settle down in? Right, more like become a hooker or wash dishes at the local chinese restaurant for the rest of your life.

It fascinates me how you on one hand defend such an irrelevant thing as the feelings of black people who get offended when being called black, yet on the other hand you condone these barbaric, savage, and primitive acts of a sadist and opressive cultures without really showing any sympathy for the victims involved. I guess genital mutilations, slavery, and ritual killings are ok too, because they're inherent parts of some local cultures, but telling a vertically challenged person that he's a dwarf is really horrible and should call for a death sentence?

I am also astounded by your passiveness in accepting these traditions, and your general view that things should always be accepted the way they are. To put it shortly, no they should not be! Slavery should not be accepted, opression should not be accepted, and, you guessed it, honor killings should not be accepted either, whether done by a christian or a muslim lunatic. There are millions of people throughout the world suffering horrible faiths because of their local cultures. Some cultures are simply inferior to others and at a lesser level of development, and in such cultures most people do want a change, but are either afraid to take action (I suppose you can guess why), or don't have any idea in which exact way the society should be changed. Why do you think that the cultures in South America collapsed as soon as the spaniards arrived? Do you think that some 150 soldiers led by Cortes or Pizarro could have brought such a havoc to the civilization if the people liked their way of living? That really shows that the essence of political correctness being an artificial display of equality between unequal things is fundamentally flawed. Societies are not equal as people living in some are much happier than those living in others, cultures are not equal as some have achieved miraculous levels of artistic and scientific development while others are living in stone age, and people are not equal as some are good and smart, and others are corrupt and stupid (although they should all have equal rights at the beginning of their lives). And finally, here you bring towards a problem of smoking weed that's totally insignificant relative to the magnitude of the problem discussed in the thread. Oh the horror, oh the humanity, you might end up with healthy lungs! Anyway, regardless of my oppinion on the subject, that's like comparing a fight between 2 neighbours with the 2nd World War. So please, stop trying to relativize things. The only good such cultures are good for is for displaying what cultures should not be like.

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quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Svens, you make it sound like it's their own fault things like these are happening. Yes, I agree it's more a cultural than a religious thing, but that is totally irrelevant. It's easy for you who have normal and tolerant parents, and accesss to everything you wish for to say such crap that these women should have known better, and that they shouldn't have interfered in their local traditions. I'd like to see you say something like that when you'd get a slap on the face every time you try to voice your opinion, regardless of whether it's right or not. The fact of the matter is that these women were, unlike you, deprived of their intrinsic rights as human beings from the day they were born. FFS, the woman was forced to marry her cousin at 16. She couldn't have known what she was getting in to, as you intelligently suggested, and even if she did, she had no choice whatsoever. Move away you say? To where? Fleeing your home is not really an insignificant thing. Especially if you consider that these women were opressed their entire lives, taught that they were inferior, and probably had no access to quality education (if any). So what do you do when you flee from home and start to get hungry and dirty and sleep on the street? What, go to a hotel and get a high paying job untill you find a nice 300m^2 villa on the Azure coast to settle down in? Right, more like become a hooker or wash dishes at the local chinese restaurant for the rest of your life. It fascinates me how you on one hand defend such an irrelevant thing as the feelings of black people who get offended when being called black, yet on the other hand you condone these barbaric, savage, and primitive acts of a sadist and opressive cultures without really showing any sympathy for the victims involved. I guess genital mutilations, slavery, and ritual killings are ok too, because they're inherent parts of some local cultures, but telling a vertically challenged person that he's a dwarf is really horrible and should call for a death sentence? I am also astounded by your passiveness in accepting these traditions, and your general view that things should always be accepted the way they are. To put it shortly, no they should not be! Slavery should not be accepted, opression should not be accepted, and, you guessed it, honor killings should not be accepted either, whether done by a christian or a muslim lunatic. There are millions of people throughout the world suffering horrible faiths because of their local cultures. Some cultures are simply inferior to others and at a lesser level of development, and in such cultures most people do want a change, but are either afraid to take action (I suppose you can guess why), or don't have any idea in which exact way the society should be changed. Why do you think that the cultures in South America collapsed as soon as the spaniards arrived? Do you think that some 150 soldiers led by Cortes or Pizarro could have brought such a havoc to the civilization if the people liked their way of living? That really shows that the essence of political correctness being an artificial display of equality between unequal things is fundamentally flawed. Societies are not equal as people living in some are much happier than those living in others, cultures are not equal as some have achieved miraculous levels of artistic and scientific development while others are living in stone age, and people are not equal as some are good and smart, and others are corrupt and stupid (although they should all have equal rights at the beginning of their lives). And finally, here you bring towards a problem of smoking weed that's totally insignificant relative to the magnitude of the problem discussed in the thread. Oh the horror, oh the humanity, you might end up with healthy lungs! Anyway, regardless of my oppinion on the subject, that's like comparing a fight between 2 neighbours with the 2nd World War. So please, stop trying to relativize things. The only good such cultures are good for is for displaying what cultures should not be like.

fuckin hell

i think my point in this issue was that they should have known what their family was like with regard to these issues...ie how closlely things like family honour etc were to the family. i wasnt condoning it, and im sure i stated that earlier.

i dont see why your bringing up the whole black labelling thing from the other thread...thats got absolutely fuck all to do with this to be honest.

as for the smoking weed thing..i used it to compare the adhernace to the rules of a community, whtehr that be the informal rulles within your cultural community or the formal rulles of the law in the wider community at large. in other words they should have been aware of the rules of her culture/community/or at least of her own family...and then been able to judge what was likley to have happened if they broke those rules. wait unitl they were able to move away then do so. moving out of home doesnt mean sleeping on the streets.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Islam doesn'tindtruct you to kill your wife/daughter if she wants to live a western lifestyle you ignorant fuck. EDIT: Pardon me for being too harsh but I'm really fucking sick of people assuming that every fucked up thing an arab does HAS to be related to Islam and is instructd to do so by the religion.

well its a little hard when they are running around with guns screaming Islam told me to do it.

quote:

Originally posted by svens_bath fuckin hell i think my point in this issue was that they should have known what their family was like with regard to these issues...ie how closlely things like family honour etc were to the family. i wasnt condoning it, and im sure i stated that earlier.

Yes, you weren't condoning it, but you basically said that it's more or less the women's fault because they knew the sort of family they were living it and they knew the possible consequences of trying to leave that sort of life. But you see, the important thing here is that knowing you live in a horrible family doesn't mean that it's your fault for living in such a family. Those women had every right to leave their families, and some of them did try doing that, like the one killed at the train station by her brothers.

quote:

i dont see why your bringing up the whole black labelling thing from the other thread...thats got absolutely fuck all to do with this to be honest.

Oh, but it does have something to do with this, which is that both of those points of view are an invention and a result of the political correctness initiative, characterized by relativizing issues. In other words, right and wrong are no longer defined as absolutes but as relatives. That means if a black person finds being called black a big offense, political correctness will treat it as a big offense. On the other hand, if a muslim lunatic finds killing his sister a normal thing to do, political correctness will treat it as more or less a normal thing. The problem here is that when you treat law and morale as subjective values, you loose the big picture and are no longer able to say which issues are important and which are irrelevant, as well as that you loose the ability to realistically and absolutely decide which issue deserves a greater punishment.

quote:

as for the smoking weed thing..i used it to compare the adhernace to the rules of a community, whtehr that be the informal rulles within your cultural community or the formal rulles of the law in the wider community at large. in other words they should have been aware of the rules of her culture/community/or at least of her own family...and then been able to judge what was likley to have happened if they broke those rules. wait unitl they were able to move away then do so. moving out of home doesnt mean sleeping on the streets.

Yes, but there's a difference between minor issues and major issues, as I already hinted in my previous paragraph (even before I read this one actually). You see, a law that says you will be fined with 5$ if you eat a chewing gum is a stupid law. A law that says you will be tortured to death whenever you eat a piece of bread is also a stupid law. Now, I'll leave you to guessing which one of those laws should require more urgent attention.

As for the laws of the community, the wider community of that family is Germany. Therefore, the women, as well as their families should accept german culture and german laws. So if any of those people are inflexible in adapting to local customs and laws, it is the family of those women, and not the women itself. You see, if something like this happened in Afghanistan, well, yes, you could say that the entire society is structured in a way that the women had no other choice. The fact that such a society is generally not the peak of humanity is a different matter. But the entire society around those families was a western society, and the families of the women were the ones who have shown a deviation from the surroundings.

And just tell me how an uneducated, unemployed foreign woman married to a tyrant who doesn't let her out of her house can go to a different state and find a decent job without her husband knowing, I'd really like to hear your theory.

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