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Originally posted by Shakka What's also amazing is how many success stories there are from people who dropped out of school!

Sarcasm? It's very very rare for that to happen.

One other thing to go along with Subey's posts: Don't you think if the kids who go to poor schools and kids in wealthy schools grew up in opposite situations with their parents going through the same school systems a generation earlier, their success rates would also reverse? If people are simply inherently more likely to become successful, then it would mean more kids would reach higher goals even despite disadvantages in their educational opportunities. I tend to think that their SATs would drop quite a bit if they received less preparation for them & didn't have the money to afford extra prep courses.

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Originally posted by wolverine16 Sarcasm? It's very very rare for that to happen.

Not really to an extent, but I don't want to take away from the importance of a good education, so I'll withdraw the statement. I was thinking along the lines of Bill Gates, who probably had good primary schooling, despite dropping out of college to become the wealthiest man in America.

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One other thing to go along with Subey's posts: Don't you think if the kids who go to poor schools and kids in wealthy schools grew up in opposite situations with their parents going through the same school systems a generation earlier, their success rates would also reverse? If people are simply inherently more likely to become successful, then it would mean more kids would reach higher goals even despite disadvantages in their educational opportunities. I tend to think that their SATs would drop quite a bit if they received less preparation for them & didn't have the money to afford extra prep courses.

I don't know what I think about that. It's certainly not illogical, but it is also predicated on some pretty generous assumptions. I for one am more of a believer in proper parenting ultimately contributing to a child's education, motivation and ultimate success and would never want to hang my hopes solely on what a school system will do for a child(though one could probably also make the claim that in an extremely contrarian situation, the child might be so motivated by his parents' complete lack of proper parenting, that he might rise out of his circumstances because he saw the light, but I digress).

I guess ultimately I am an optimist when it comes to people and their ability to adapt to and deal with their environment.(That's probably a lot of Rand coming out in me. i.e "The concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute." ).

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Originally posted by Shakka Not really to an extent, but I don't want to take away from the importance of a good education, so I'll withdraw the statement. I was thinking along the lines of Bill Gates, who probably had good primary schooling, despite dropping out of college to become the wealthiest man in America. I don't know what I think about that. It's certainly not illogical, but it is also predicated on some pretty generous assumptions. I for one am more of a believer in proper parenting ultimately contributing to a child's education, motivation and ultimate success and would never want to hang my hopes solely on what a school system will do for a child(though one could probably also make the claim that in an extremely contrarian situation, the child might be so motivated by his parents' complete lack of proper parenting, that he might rise out of his circumstances because he saw the light, but I digress). I guess ultimately I am an optimist when it comes to people and their ability to adapt to and deal with their environment.(That's probably a lot of Rand coming out in me. i.e "The concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute." ).

There's clearly no one way that works for everyone and even children in the same family grow up very differently. I share your optimism that people can succeed, I just think I'm very optimistic that many people do try already. I guarantee that there are kids who try harder to do better than their parents, but I also think most people benefit more often from having successful parents, not neccessarily from inheriting their genes, but from their societal influence, of knowing what it will take to succeed, having the knowledge to help with homework, etc. That's why I used a 2nd generation in my hypothetical. There's no one route or exact requirements for success, but I guess all I'm trying to say is while there are people that will find a way to gain success no matter what the obstacle, the majority of people aren't going to overcome significant disadvantages when competing with people with similar abilities who are given advantages.

*Also when I asked if you were being sarcastic, I thought you were discussing high school drop-outs, rather than college drop-outs.

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Originally posted by wolverine16 but I also think most people benefit more often from having successful parents, not neccessarily from inheriting their genes, but from their societal influence, of knowing what it will take to succeed, having the knowledge to help with homework, etc.

When I was a young lad, I had a summer job as a window washer. While I was excellent with computers, I was unable to get my foot in the door at Nortel (the dream summer job at the time).

Ironically, the company I worked for got the contract to wash the windows at Nortel's head office (Gattaca's a great movie by the way). 3 of my classmates had summer jobs at Nortel. All of them had worse computer knowledge than me. Guess what?

All three of them had parents who worked for Nortel. So at the end of that summer my resume said "Washed Nortel's Windows", while their's said "Worked for Nortel". Where I lived, before the bust, Nortel on a resume was the gold standard.

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Originally posted by Shakka I guess ultimately I am an optimist when it comes to people and their ability to adapt to and deal with their environment.(That's probably a lot of Rand coming out in me. i.e "The concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute." ).

I can handle you finding Hedberg funny. But quoting Ayn crosses the line for me!

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Originally posted by wolverine16 But do you really think that a school in a poor neighborhood has the same reasources and quality teachers? I honestly don't know how Canadian public schools are funded (I'm guessing not through a property tax system like we have), so maybe they are more equally funded. I completely agree that some people will make it no matter what the odds, but who can honestly say a poorly funded school prepares its students as well as the best schools for the SATs? Additionally even if a high school student puts forth the effort to take public transportation and use what is available at a library across town, aren't they at a disadvantage from when when they were in failing first & second grade classes? There are a lot of people in poor neighborhoods who work multiple jobs to provide for their families as best as possible, but the reality is they cannot afford the housing to live in better school districts. Gentrification often occurs when neighborhoods do become better and funding for schools increases through property taxes. If the resources and opportunities are so sufficient in poorly funded school districts, then why do so many parents try to live in areas with good school districts? There's no way on earth that more kids from poorly funded schools will be accepted to the best colleges than students from prep & magnet schools, no matter how hard they work. C'mon! We're falling behind even France!

There's an assumption here that formal education is the key to wealth.
While formal education is important, it does not assume one will have more or less opportunities than someone with no formal education.
People unfortunately are still brainwashed into thinking education is "the" ticket so they flock to "good schools". Education doesn't guarantee anything other than debt.
The irony is that around the good schools are the wealthy people that have the opportunities and the mindset that people are really looking for.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r There's an assumption here that formal education is the key to wealth. While formal education is important, it does not assume one will have more or less opportunities than someone with no formal education. People unfortunately are still brainwashed into thinking education is "the" ticket so they flock to "good schools". Education doesn't guarantee anything other than debt. The irony is that around the good schools are the wealthy people that have the opportunities and the mindset that people are really looking for.

Yes, but more often than not it is people with a good education that succeed. Who was the last President who didn't go to an Ivy League school? The reason why wealthy people are around the good schools is because they can afford to send their kids there and in the case of solid public schools (like magnets), they can afford to live in those neighborhoods. My neighborhood, Lincoln Park, for example is one of the wealthiest in Chicago, but even 25 years ago, before it was gentrified, it was quite poor and had horrible schools. As the neighborhood came up, more and more people who had lived there could not afford the property taxes and costs of living and very few of those people still live in the neighborhood. This is very certain if you look at the drastic changes in the demographics.

Most often I think education is the ticket because you have to work your way up. What successful business doesn't want people who didn't come from the best schools, have the most experience, the best internships, the best letters of recommendation, the most familiarity with the technology they use? The top paying law firms, a couple of which I have interned at, will only even consider new attorney applicants if they are from one of the top 10 law schools or finish top in their class. Street smarts, personality and other more instinctive traits can also help a lot, but in general these will not solely give people an advantage over people who have highly developed educational skills, especially since many of these peoploe also may have their own intangibles. A good education is not a guarantee for success, but I can't think of any better tool to help foster it. Consistently college and post-graduate degree-holders outearn those without them. If I have to come up with a source that shows that, please let me know, as I guarantee I can find more than a few.

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Originally posted by wolverine16 Yes, but more often than not it is people with a good education that succeed. Who was the last President who didn't go to an Ivy League school? The reason why wealthy people are around the good schools is because they can afford to send their kids there and in the case of solid public schools (like magnets), they can afford to live in those neighborhoods. My neighborhood, Lincoln Park, for example is one of the wealthiest in Chicago, but even 25 years ago, before it was gentrified, it was quite poor and had horrible schools. As the neighborhood came up, more and more people who had lived there could not afford the property taxes and costs of living and very few of those people still live in the neighborhood. This is very certain if you look at the drastic changes in the demographics. Most often I think education is the ticket because you have to work your way up. What successful business doesn't want people who didn't come from the best schools, have the most experience, the best internships, the best letters of recommendation, the most familiarity with the technology they use? The top paying law firms, a couple of which I have interned at, will only even consider new attorney applicants if they are from one of the top 10 law schools or finish top in their class. Street smarts, personality and other more instinctive traits can also help a lot, but in general these will not solely give people an advantage over people who have highly developed educational skills, especially since many of these peoploe also may have their own intangibles. A good education is not a guarantee for success, but I can't think of any better tool to help foster it. Consistently college and post-graduate degree-holders outearn those without them. If I have to come up with a source that shows that, please let me know, as I guarantee I can find more than a few.

What you do say is true however those "A" students are working for the "B" students who are working for the "C" and "D" students that own the business.
I know at least 2-3 people in my grad class alone where this is true.
This isn't the case always, however if education is better than it's ever been, why is it that people that followed this path (for the most part) don't truly succeed?
Why is it that there are people out there that want to own their own business when they're already working for one that's stable?
I like what I read once, "The banks don't ask for your report card".

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r There's an assumption here that formal education is the key to wealth. While formal education is important, it does not assume one will have more or less opportunities than someone with no formal education. People unfortunately are still brainwashed into thinking education is "the" ticket so they flock to "good schools". Education doesn't guarantee anything other than debt. The irony is that around the good schools are the wealthy people that have the opportunities and the mindset that people are really looking for.

Taken from the 1991 Canadian Census for Canadians of British Ethnic Background - INCOME

With No degree being the base
No degree = Base
High school diploma = +13.2%
Trades Certificate = +16.8%
Other Non-University Certificate =+21.3%
University Certificate below bachelor =+27.3%
Bachelor =+39%
University Certificate above bachelor=+47.4%
Masters=+58.3%
Earned Doctorate=+76.6%

Woohoo! I found a use for my Sociology textbook

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Originally posted by Subey Taken from the 1991 Canadian Census for Canadians of British Ethnic Background - INCOME With No degree being the base No degree = Base High school diploma = +13.2% Trades Certificate = +16.8% Other Non-University Certificate =+21.3% University Certificate below bachelor =+27.3% Bachelor =+39% University Certificate above bachelor=+47.4% Masters=+58.3% Earned Doctorate=+76.6% Woohoo! I found a use for my Sociology textbook

I'm assuming these are salaries, in which case the census won't take into account business gains or portfolio incomes.

It's not about how much you make, it's about how much you keep.
Sure a doctor can make more than me, but after they've paid for their expenses and other obligations, how much are they making then?

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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C'mon! We're falling behind even France!

Actually if I remember right, of all the Industrialized Democracies the United States' test scores are one of the lowest. So my guess is we've been behind France for a long time.