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Originally posted by DJMaytag IMHO, this was intentional. How else can you explain Vader's mixed feelings in Return of The Jedi? Yes, he went down the path of the Dark Side, but did he completely go down it? No, hence his ability to toss the Emporer down that shaft to save Luke. If there was some development to Anakin sliding down the path to the Dark Side, then what happened in ROTJ wouldn't really make sense.

So you think that Lucas intentionally made something that doesn't make sense (Anakin's killings of the Younglings and the Seperatists as well as his near-choking of Padme) in order to not render something in a 20-year old movie stupid? Makes no sense to me.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 I agree with Itarille also. Kush, you're really overestimating the philosophical aspects of the movie, and especially political ones. It's as philosophical and political as, I dunno, Matrix. Eh..wait, you mentioned Matrix already..lemme check..damn, you did. Umm, then let's think of something philosophically similar..I know! Barney the Dinosaur!

I think you're being slightly harsh on The Matrix (the first one) here. Sure, it's not an epiphany but it had two points which raised it (intellectually speaking) above most other sci-fi movies IMO: First, it had the most elegant manifestation of the philosophical consequences of Cartesian doubt I've seen so far in a movie, practically doing a movie equivalent of what Sophie's World did for books. Second, it presented a rarely touched moral question, viz. should you decide for others whether their "ignorance is bliss"?, without pushing some answers down your throat. Furthermore, both of these points were achieved without disrespecting the intelligence of the audience.
To me, that ranks far above a crude "guy turns evil and gets his just reward"-point, or a "you should learn to accept the tidings of faith" spelled out l-i-t-e-r-a-l-l-y by a central character. In Sith (and possibly Barney the Dinosaur, which I have yet to see - any good?) we are never left to figure anything out by ourselves. The biggest surprise to me as the movie unfold, was that Lucas hadn't forced McGregor to say "I'm upset and crying" when he was upset and crying in the end.

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Originally posted by trancaholic So you think that Lucas intentionally made something that doesn't make sense (Anakin's killings of the Younglings and the Seperatists as well as his near-choking of Padme) in order to not render something in a 20-year old movie stupid? Makes no sense to me.

Sidious was his master then, as Anakin was going to do whatever it took to learn the power to save Padme.

The sudden shift to the Dark Side was done out of fear of loss (IMHO), and probably explains why there was that doubt in Vader's mind that Luke could sense in ROTJ. Sure, there could have been more development of the struggle that led to the decision, but I think that the fears and doubts he had between Palpatine and the other Jedis did a decent job of showing that struggle without it being overtly obvious.

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Originally posted by DJMaytag Sidious was his master then, as Anakin was going to do whatever it took to learn the power to save Padme. The sudden shift to the Dark Side was done out of fear of loss (IMHO), and probably explains why there was that doubt in Vader's mind that Luke could sense in ROTJ. Sure, there could have been more development of the struggle that led to the decision, but I think that the fears and doubts he had between Palpatine and the other Jedis did a decent job of showing that struggle without it being overtly obvious.

Palpatine manipulated Anakin by using his only real weakness against him. He knew Anakin would do anything to save Padme's life so he convincingly dangled in front of him the one possibility of being able to save her.

It's not too far of a stretch to say that something similar could be happening to us with this "War on Terror." We American's are clamoring to be saved from what is actually an ideology and not a static or cohesive group of individuals - while we are at the same time creating more and more of what we are supposed to be stifling (the creation of new terrorists.) It's going to play like our everlasting "War on Drugs" which is really just another means to establish more bureaucracy, and a justifification of the pork barrel spending and the padded political pockets in which it is associated.





"Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who makes the laws." - Mayer Amschel Rothschild




Sorry for the digression

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Originally posted by trancaholic I think you're being slightly harsh on The Matrix (the first one) here. Sure, it's not an epiphany but it had two points which raised it (intellectually speaking) above most other sci-fi movies IMO: First, it had the most elegant manifestation of the philosophical consequences of Cartesian doubt I've seen so far in a movie, practically doing a movie equivalent of what Sophie's World did for books. Second, it presented a rarely touched moral question, viz. should you decide for others whether their "ignorance is bliss"?, without pushing some answers down your throat. Furthermore, both of these points were achieved without disrespecting the intelligence of the audience. To me, that ranks far above a crude "guy turns evil and gets his just reward"-point, or a "you should learn to accept the tidings of faith" spelled out l-i-t-e-r-a-l-l-y by a central character. In Sith (and possibly Barney the Dinosaur, which I have yet to see - any good?) we are never left to figure anything out by ourselves. The biggest surprise to me as the movie unfold, was that Lucas hadn't forced McGregor to say "I'm upset and crying" when he was upset and crying in the end.

Eh, now that I think about it, Matrix 1 was pretty good. I did have objections about the movie because some premises seemed kinda awkward (ffs, human body can't produce that much electricity, the robots could have just built a bunch of nukes, or if they really wanted biological sources, they could have used electric eels instead - no need for the matrix then, an aquarium is more than sufficient). But philosophically it was a level above Star Wars, that's for sure.

Oh, yeah..Barny the Dinosaur rocks.

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Originally posted by DJMaytag Sidious was his master then, as Anakin was going to do whatever it took to learn the power to save Padme. The sudden shift to the Dark Side was done out of fear of loss (IMHO), and probably explains why there was that doubt in Vader's mind that Luke could sense in ROTJ. Sure, there could have been more development of the struggle that led to the decision, but I think that the fears and doubts he had between Palpatine and the other Jedis did a decent job of showing that struggle without it being overtly obvious.

So you're saying that Darth Vader was never fully evil, but kept doing evil things in the vain hope that by abiding by the "rules" of the dark side, he would eventually learn the secret of preventing death? I think that it's a nice theory, although I don't see any support for it in the acting throughout the movies. For instance, why would Darth Vader try so hard to convince Luke to come to the dark side in episodes 5 and 6? If he had yet to actually learn the things he wanted to learn, and (according to your theory) was still good in his heart and wished the best for his son, why would he ask him to join him on a path that had given him nothing compared to what it had taken from him? Further, there are plenty of examples were Vader is evil for no other apparent reason than being evil for evil's sake. Why would he do that if he was really good inside?
Anyhow, as I said, it's an interesting theory, but I'm still a believer in the alternative one: Lucas sucks badly at directing his actors.

DrUg_TitO: Nice point about the human batteries. Never gave that part of the story much thought.

I did not move the thread into the CORe, personally i think its quite a good topic worthy of discussion in here.

as for modding this forum, i've been a mod in this forum since its creation and on the whole this forum is self regulating, it rarely needs the interaction of a mod because with varying political topics that even those we vote into power can not resolve to a majority satisfaction whats any mod gonna do?

this forum should reflect the real political world, and in real life politics it can lead to war over a wrongly spoken word, so whats the difference here.

The mods of this forum remain impartial to any political view held by the members, outright abuse or outright racisim will be moderated.

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Originally posted by Wicked Neo I did not move the thread into the CORe, personally i think its quite a good topic worthy of discussion in here. as for modding this forum, i've been a mod in this forum since its creation and on the whole this forum is self regulating, it rarely needs the interaction of a mod because with varying political topics that even those we vote into power can not resolve to a majority satisfaction whats any mod gonna do? this forum should reflect the real political world, and in real life politics it can lead to war over a wrongly spoken word, so whats the difference here. The mods of this forum remain impartial to any political view held by the members, outright abuse or outright racisim will be moderated.

I think that you do a fine job, Neo.

And yeah, it's nice that this forum is for the most part self-regulating. The trolls know better than to post in here!

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"Learn, child, to catch a hint through whatever agency it may be given. 'Sermons may be preached through stones." - Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, Letters from the Masters of Wisdom, first series, p. 74, letter 31

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Originally posted by Trancer-X I think that you do a fine job, Neo. And yeah, it's nice that this forum is for the most part self-regulating. The trolls know better than to post in here!

Dunno I've been gettin away with doin it for ages now!!

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Originally posted by George Smiley Dunno I've been gettin away with doin it for ages now!!

LOL

I wouldn't categorize you as a troll, though. You're more akin to a gnome. Just as long as you stay away from our underpants everything will remain okay.

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Originally posted by Trancer-X LOL I wouldn't categorize you as a troll, though. You're more akin to a gnome. Just as long as you stay away from our underpants everything will remain okay.

You remind me of my mum!

Ah yes a fellow South Park fan.

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I watched the film recently. I thought it was kinda crap in bits actually. But definatly good to see it all pan out. One thing though you know the guy Palpatine *had as his master who knew all the shit.

You know the bit where he says "he had the power to create life" and you know how Anakin didn't have have a dad and his mum went "there was no father" think it was him?

EDIT: has into had

Last edited by Dervish on Jun-06-2005 at 22:42