quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer you moron.what if those women chosed to dress like that and it wasnt forced upon them?is that hard to believe?

iam with you on that i don't believe he will understand that

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer you moron.what if those women chosed to dress like that and it wasnt forced upon them?is that hard to believe?

Is it hard to belive that a bunch of women chose to wear exactly the same crappy clothes? Yes it is actualy. I really doubt that whey would all chose to wear that, if they werent told that they have to.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z I agree. But this image of Arab culture is wildly exagerated. Saudi Arabia, without a doubt, has the most extreme and fundamentalist Goverment in the entrie Middle East.

...But not by much.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z The reason I pointed that out and said the Saudi Goverment/Fudamentalists is because it's not reflective of reality in many other Muslim countries/societies.

True, but then orthodox Sunnis (that is, the devout of Islam according to a literal reading of the Qur'an) wouldn't call these countries you're thinking of "true Muslims" (you likely know this better than I do).

Observe what's gone on between the Sunni and Shia of Iraq and Iran -- the Sunni condemn moderate Islam (that is, anything other than a literal reading of the Qur'an) as illegitimate, and its devout as targets. So taking these other countries that are not Fundamentalist as the benchmark "of reality in many other Muslim countries/societies", while indeed a change in perspective, isn't an accurate measure of Islam.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z When people who don't know Muslims or don't know anything about/understand Islam, are many times mislead to believe that Islam is oppresive of women (which is a common misconception in the West).

I think I follow what you're trying to say here -- correct me if I'm wrong.

To them, no rights have been violated because within the context of their socio-religion, women don't have any rights to begin with. This has been a major bone of contention within the UN, the WTO, and e.g., Turkey's admission to the EU.

This has been the way for centuries, and only a Westerner with the concept of equal rights (having developed this from a different, arguably more secular historical experience and perspective) could look at Islam and say it's unequal. This is a Westerner forcing his own ideals on someone else's historical experience, when the two aren't compatable (same goes for Democracy, by the way).

I agree that we in the West, pointing our fingers and casting labels is largely an unfair historical anachronism. It misunderstands the culture of Islam and the Middle East, which should be approached on their own terms, not thru the lens of general Western ignorance.

But like it or not, the West doesn't like to deal openly with people that don't share its own values. Policy is (due to economic clout) that other cultures must conform to Western ideals or be left behind. This is a shame when these elder-brother cultures have so much more to teach. But let's not misrepresent them either.

Cheers,
-Noble.

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Last edited by TheNobleEu on Jun-14-2005 at 14:39

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer you moron.what if those women chosed to dress like that and it wasnt forced upon them?is that hard to believe?

There's nothing I enjoy more than strapping on my ankle to neck, black abaya to go play a game of hoops in the blistering sun. Then again, it's not like they have the option of throwing on a T-shirt and athletic shorts. But hey, at least they get to shoot some hoops, right?

On a side note, check out this wicked Islamic swimwear. It's not oppressive at all.

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Originally posted by Shakka On a side note, check out this wicked Islamic swimwear. It's not oppressive at all.

*gasp*

It shows the ankles! How perverted!

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quote:

Originally posted by Moongoose Is it hard to belive that a bunch of women chose to wear exactly the same crappy clothes? Yes it is actualy. I really doubt that whey would all chose to wear that, if they werent told that they have to.

this is where the cultural gap sets in. i agree with you most women in the west wouldnt wear the same thing because they dont want other people looking at them wearing the same thing. but in certain eastern cultures women dont want people looking at them full stop. the dress you see here is a sort of uniform, you may not belive this, but to hide what the woman looks like. im not saying whether this is right or wrong, it just the culture that they have grown up in and this is what they know. so when there are men around they wear this covering.

for example in saudi arabia you have more shopping for womens clothes than you have in canada, BY FAR. my friends are seeing shops open up in canada recently that have already been there in europe and saudi, yet one glance in the mall and all the women look the same in thier black abayas, that is for the public, under the abayas they are wearing their clothes.

there is a difference in cultural perspective, it doesn't make it wrong.

^^^^
I actually have no problem with that is it's their CHOICE... the thing is, they don't have a choice.



FYI, that basketball pic was taken in the U.S. Women are not allowed to play basketball in Saudi Arabia.

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Originally posted by TheNobleEu I think I follow what you're trying to say here -- correct me if I'm wrong. To them, no rights have been violated because within the context of their socio-religion, women don't have any rights to begin with. This has been a major bone of contention within the UN, the WTO, and e.g., Turkey's admission to the EU.

Yes, you are wrong. Islam is the first major monotheistic religion(if not the first religion) which gave women equal rights. In certain places in the Muslim world, it's a really backward cultural thing and lack of education (amost othert factors) (which incase you don't realize, is contrary to the teachings of Islam) that women's rights are opressed on some level.

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Originally posted by TheNobleEu This has been the way for centuries, and only a Westerner with the concept of equal rights (having developed this from a different, arguably more secular historical experience and perspective) could look at Islam and say it's unequal.

Ok, I'm not trying to be confrontational, nor my I trying to piss off my white brothers here, but the concept of equal rights is very new to western culture whereas this concept has existed in Islam since its arrival 1400 years ago. Islam is very critical of the mistreatment of women that was pretty much found all over the world before it and racial discrimination aswell. So, you've done nothing but demonstrated pure ignorance here. And neighter am I trying to get into a pissing contest of Islamic values v.s. Western value but you kind of asked for this one as your argument is simply factualy incorrect (and I find it hard not to believe, you're ignorance of Islam and it's teachings).

quote:

Originally posted by TheNobleEu This is a Westerner forcing his own ideals on someone else's historical experience, when the two aren't compatable (same goes for Democracy, by the way). I agree that we in the West, pointing our fingers and casting labels is largely an unfair historical anachronism. It misunderstands the culture of Islam and the Middle East, which should be approached on their own terms, not thru the lens of general Western ignorance.

Right. But you're doing exactly that rightnow as I pointed out above.

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Originally posted by TheNobleEu But like it or not, the West doesn't like to deal openly with people that don't share its own values. Policy is (due to economic clout) that other cultures must conform to Western ideals or be left behind.

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here.

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"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

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Originally posted by Moongoose Is it hard to belive that a bunch of women chose to wear exactly the same crappy clothes? Yes it is actualy. I really doubt that whey would all chose to wear that, if they werent told that they have to.

Alright, since so many of you have minimal understanding of Islam, let me introduce to you an aspect of Islam. Men AND women, are supposed to be modest in their behaviour towards the opposite sex. And modesty is not only supposed to reflect in your behaviour and keeping a respectable distance from each other, but you're also supposed to dress modestly. This standard doesn't apply only to women, but to men aswell.

The West (relatively speaking) is fairly consious about fashion, style etc. Well, believe it or not, in Muslim culture, they don't really care anywhere near as much about it, and in many parts of the world, almost not at all.

In Islam, neigther men nor women, are supposed to expose alot or use their sexualuality attract the opposite sex. Which is why they cover alot more than what most of us (yes, even me) are used to. It's not about men opressing women, but women are supposed to dress modestly and not expose alot(and not just women mind you). At the same times, the minimal coverage prescribed for men and women by the religion is not the same. And I don't think that's very hard to understand. Men don't exactly have tits and women have much more self control in that department than men. Don't agree with it? Well, no ones asking you to. Don't understand it? Well, that's too bad.

If you still want to, I guess you can continue to buy all the bullshit propoganda you get from the media and other places about Islam. But then you have to also remember that it's not Islam you're criticizing but a very negative portayal of it in Western culture.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

If you guys have questions or whatever, I'm all ears, but I'm kind of sick of replying to incorrect asumptions and statements.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller