I agree with that, if I take classical music and make it 7 x faster, the instruments, time signature, etc, remain classical. The key part of that website though is the concept of "traditional sense". You are right that a trance song played slower or faster is still trance, technically, but not what one would traditionally expect when they think of trance. While I may be wrong, I would never consider a song at 180BPM house, or a song at 60BPM trance. It may have once been house or trance, but it is no longer once it has been manipulated in this way. Ironically, if you took a rock song and speed it up to dance music speeds, often the average person will think that they made a "techno version".

I also agree that BPM is not definitive, but it is usually indicative, of genre. Also, if Armin says himself that he plays both trance AND progressive, does it not suggest that I am somewhat correct in suggesting that not all of the tracks he plays are trance? On the same topic, would you consider what Markus Schulz plays as all trance? I find he too plays a lot of progressive, or, at a minimum, tracks that aren't necessarily trance.

"I just have to say that I agree with this view. Most genres are about a feeling and I don't see how a feeling would change just because you simply speed up or slow down a track. A happy song is a happy song no matter what the tempo is."

I disagree with this completely. House music, for example, has a very soulful sound that does go along with the tempo of the song. If you make it 160BPM, it loses the "groove" and soulfulness that makes house what it is, and in that case, it is related to the tempo of the song. As well, I find that even with a given trance song, I find it has a different feel depending on the tempo, such as when PVD pitches up a given song.

quote:

Originally posted by Deam Ironically, if you took a rock song and speed it up to dance music speeds, often the average person will think that they made a "techno version".

Many rock songs are at higher tempos than most house and trance.

___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

Agreed. However, my point was to say that regardless of initial speed, people classify a song as "techno-version" when it is sped up beyond a trivial amount.

These people are idiots then.

___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

quote:

Originally posted by Deam "I just have to say that I agree with this view. Most genres are about a feeling and I don't see how a feeling would change just because you simply speed up or slow down a track. A happy song is a happy song no matter what the tempo is." I disagree with this completely. House music, for example, has a very soulful sound that does go along with the tempo of the song. If you make it 160BPM, it loses the "groove" and soulfulness that makes house what it is, and in that case, it is related to the tempo of the song. As well, I find that even with a given trance song, I find it has a different feel depending on the tempo, such as when PVD pitches up a given song.

quote:

Ultra house: Extremely fast house beats typically 160 to 220 beats per minute, the same speed as "jungle" music.

definitions of house

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Time exists so everything doesn't happen at once. Space exists so everything doesn't happen to you

Here is something that I think might help this discussion, from that same link:

"Deep house: A slower variant of house (around 120 BPM) with warm sometimes hypnotic melodies that originated in San Francisco. "

So, a different BPM in this case creates a variant of house. Just like Ultra House is a variant of house, hence the different name. It is not House. And I will also point out that a song played at regular house speeds and the same song at Ultra speeds would most definitely NOT have the same feeling while you are listening and dancing to it.

Trance has many genres. So the question then is, the slower, less energetic songs that Armin plays, what would we call those, other then "slow trance"? Is that progressive trance?

quote:

Originally posted by Deam I disagree with this completely. House music, for example, has a very soulful sound that does go along with the tempo of the song. If you make it 160BPM, it loses the "groove" and soulfulness that makes house what it is, and in that case, it is related to the tempo of the song. As well, I find that even with a given trance song, I find it has a different feel depending on the tempo, such as when PVD pitches up a given song.

Somehow I don't see that. You mean a 160bpm track can't be soulfull? I have actually sped a house track up to 172bpm for a bootleg and it didn't loose it's "groove" or soulfullness.

quote:

Originally posted by Deam Here is something that I think might help this discussion, from that same link: "Deep house: A slower variant of house (around 120 BPM) with warm sometimes hypnotic melodies that originated in San Francisco. " So, a different BPM in this case creates a variant of house. Just like Ultra House is a variant of house, hence the different name. It is not House. And I will also point out that a song played at regular house speeds and the same song at Ultra speeds would most definitely NOT have the same feeling while you are listening and dancing to it. Trance has many genres. So the question then is, the slower, less energetic songs that Armin plays, what would we call those, other then "slow trance"? Is that progressive trance?

compare Cass & Slide - Perception to what you call "slow trance"

BTW....

quote:

Deep house is a style of house music. It is loosely defined by the following characteristics that distinguish it from most other forms of house music: relatively slow tempo (110–125 bpm); de-emphasized percussion, including: simpler drum machine programming; gentle transitions and fewer "build-ups"; less "thumpy" bass drum sound; less pronounced hi-hats on the off-beat; sustained chords or other tonal elements that span multiple bars; increased use of reverb, delay, and filter effects; a featured solo R&B vocalist, often male, exhibiting soul, jazz, and/or gospel influences; jazz influences or samples in the instrumentation. Not all of these need to be present or fully satisfied in order for house music to be called "deep house"; fans of the style typically just identify it by its subjective "feel" rather than by the presence or absence of specific elements. The term "deep house" first appeared in the music press in the late 1980s, usually in reference to the music of Larry Heard.

___________________
Time exists so everything doesn't happen at once. Space exists so everything doesn't happen to you

Well, yes, if you find it equally soulful, I cannot disagree with your feeling on that song. But look at Deep House. Part of the "deep" aspect comes from the very fact that the tempo is slower then house generally.

"fans of the style typically just identify it by its subjective "feel" rather than by the presence or absence of specific elements."

And yes, I don't think Deep house would have the same "feel" at 145 BPM. I am surprised nobody conceeds that point. EDIT: Obviously, as that quote states, there are multiple elements to deep house, but the speed is surely one of the significant ones.

just a quick question...


wasn't this thread about armin and asot?

and to answer your question about markus, i would not even consider him a "trance" dj. many of the tracks that he plays i would consider to be prog or prog. trance.

Edit: also, if you feel the beat makes a difference in a genre, then that's awesome. I just don't know why you're arguing about it...it's an opinion...you can't be right or wrong man

Thank you. Given that Armin sometimes plays the same songs as Markus, then he plays progressive. But again, this is moot, because Armin himself says it's progressive too. This came about because it seems people think that everything Armin plays during ASOT is trance. I wanted to know that this was not in fact that case, and it appears it isn't. My question originated because the show is called "a state of trance", although I found that not all the songs were "trance" in nature.

The remaining discussion is an interesting consideration of the role of BPM on genre definition.