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ronk
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Earth

Israel belong to us, it's only Britain who gave the palestinians a promise about some parts of this land, because they were afraid of terror acts from them against the british who lived and ruled here 50± years ago.

but you call us terrorists?
the palestinians are scumbags who kill innocent people!
did you freaking know that a palestinian women was about to blow herself up in an Israeli hospital (where I was hospitalized a year ago, and you can't even imagine the numerous arabs who were hospitalized there too) if it weren't a soldier who stopped her in the right moment?!
or..do you know about the bombing yesterday in Netania, after 5 MONTHS of cease fire?!


Jerusalem, by the way, is a part of Israel and its capital ever since it was built by King David.
and I'd like a link to the "international community" where they say Jerusalem isn't a part of Israel and isn't Israel's capital city.


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Old Post Jul-13-2005 18:26  Israel
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas
Re: Re: jerusalem the capital, duh

quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
Jerusalem isn't even in Israel so how can it be capital?!


Hmm, you rasie an outstanding point Georegy!

I believe it is time to tell all the politicians, judges, bureaucrates, and other officials that it is time to leave their courts, parlimentary buildings, and offices, because they aren't in Israel.

You might also want to bring this late breaking news to the attention of Mr. Bush who plans to move the US Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem....


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Click here to support the free mustard alliance.

Old Post Jul-13-2005 18:27  Israel
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas

quote:
Originally posted by hardcore trancer


how about we annihilate you instead?


what'd you mean, I thought you guys were already trying to do that


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Old Post Jul-13-2005 18:28  Israel
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George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London
Re: Re: Re: jerusalem the capital, duh

quote:
Originally posted by Yoepus
Hmm, you rasie an outstanding point Georegy!

I believe it is time to tell all the politicians, judges, bureaucrates, and other officials that it is time to leave their courts, parlimentary buildings, and offices, because they aren't in Israel.

You might also want to bring this late breaking news to the attention of Mr. Bush who plans to move the US Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem....


Roll your eyes all you want it makes little difference to my point does it not? Jerusalem is not in Israel...

Old Post Jul-13-2005 18:48  England
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George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London

quote:
Originally posted by ronk
Jerusalem, by the way, is a part of Israel and its capital ever since it was built by King David.
and I'd like a link to the "international community" where they say Jerusalem isn't a part of Israel and isn't Israel's capital city.


quote:
THE UK POSITION ON JERUSALEM

Jerusalem was supposed to be a 'corpus separatum', or international city administered by the UN. But this was never set up: immediately after the UNGA resolution partitioning Palestine, Israel occupied West Jerusalem and Jordan occupied East Jerusalem (including the Old City). We recognised the de facto control of Israel and Jordan, but not sovereignty. In 1967, Israel occupied East Jerusalem, which we continue to consider is under illegal military occupation by Israel. Our Embassy to Israel is in Tel Aviv, not Jerusalem. In East Jerusalem we have a Consulate-General, with a Consul-General who is not accredited to any state: this is an expression of our view that no state has sovereignty over Jerusalem.

The UK position was formally expressed in April 1950, when HMG extended simultaneous de jure recognition to both Jordan and Israel. However, the statement withheld recognition of the sovereignty of either Jordan or Israel over the sectors of the city which each then held, within the area of the corpus separatum as stipulated in UN General Assembly Resolution 303 (IV) of 1949. In the British view, no such recognition was possible before a final determination of the status of this area, although HMG did recognise that both Jordan and Israel exercised 'de facto authority' over those parts of the city and area which each held.

After the 1967 war, with Israel occupying all of Jerusalem, the Israeli Government immediately extended its civil law to the whole city, simultaneously greatly enlarging the municipal boundaries into the West Bank. This purported annexation of East Jerusalem was reaffirmed in 1980 when Israel enacted its 'Jerusalem Law', formally declaring East and West Jerusalem together, 'whole and united', to be 'the capital of Israel'.

The UK rejects these Israeli measures to change the status of Jerusalem. The UN Security Council unanimously adopted Resolution 478 of 1980 in response to the Israeli annexation, declaring it to be a violation of international law; the British Government has reiterated and amplified this position many times since.

HMG's formal position is based on the 1950 statement: it recognises that Israel exercises de facto authority in West Jerusalem and, from 1950 to 1967, recognised that Jordan exercised de facto authority in East Jerusalem. Since the war of 1967, HMG has regarded Israel as being in military occupation of East Jerusalem, and in this connection subject to the rules of law applicable to such an occupation, in particular the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949. HMG also holds that the provisions of Security Council Resolution 242 on the withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the 1967 war applies to East Jerusalem. The Venice Declaration and subsequent statements (both by the UK alone and with EU partners) have made clear that no unilateral attempts to change the status of Jerusalem are valid.

The UK believes that the city's status has yet to be determined, and maintains that it should be settled in an overall agreement between the parties concerned, but considers that the city should not again be divided. The Declaration of Principles and the Interim Agreement, signed by Israel and the PLO on 13 September 1993 and 28 September 1995 respectively, left the issue of the status of Jerusalem to be decided in the 'permanent status' negotiations between the two parties.

link


Also I'm not sure but I dont think Jerusalem was ever part of the Kingdom of Israel (altho I might have got that the wrong way round) as the Kingdom of Israel only compromised [which ever one is the northern region - Judia or Samaria I have no idea which way round they are!] which did not include Jerusalem (I'll try and find a link cos I may be mistaken on that part)

Old Post Jul-13-2005 18:53  England
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George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London

quote:
Originally posted by ronk
the palestinians are scumbags who kill innocent people!
did you freaking know that a palestinian women was about to blow herself up in an Israeli hospital (where I was hospitalized a year ago, and you can't even imagine the numerous arabs who were hospitalized there too) if it weren't a soldier who stopped her in the right moment?!
or..do you know about the bombing yesterday in Netania, after 5 MONTHS of cease fire?!

Do you know every single Palestinian?

Old Post Jul-13-2005 18:54  England
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George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London

quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
Also I'm not sure but I dont think Jerusalem was ever part of the Kingdom of Israel (altho I might have got that the wrong way round) as the Kingdom of Israel only compromised [which ever one is the northern region - Judia or Samaria I have no idea which way round they are!] which did not include Jerusalem (I'll try and find a link cos I may be mistaken on that part)

Here we go...

quote:
The Bible talks about the great and magnificent united monarchy of David and Solomon in the 10th century BCE, which split into two kingdoms, Israel and Judah, because of the demand by Solomon's son, Rehoboam (Rehavam), for excessive tax payments from the tribes of the northern hills and Galilee, which thereupon angrily seceded from the united monarchy. The result was two centuries of strife, wars and fraternal hatred.

The Scriptures treat Israel as a secondary kingdom of no importance, a place of incorrigible sinners, whereas Judah is considered the great and just kingdom whose capital is Jerusalem, where King Solomon established a splendid temple during the glorious era of the united monarchy. Finkelstein is dubious about the existence of this great united monarchy.

"There is no archaeological evidence for it," he says. "This is something unexampled in history. I don't think there is any other place in the world where there was a city with such a wretched material infrastructure but which succeeded in creating such a sweeping movement in its favor as Jerusalem, which even in its time of greatness was a joke in comparison to the cities of Assyria, Babylon or Egypt. It was a typical mountain village. There is no magnificent finding, no gates of Nebuchadnezzar, no Assyrian reliefs, no Egyptian temples - nothing. Even the temple couldn't compete with the temples of Egypt and their splendor."

Then why was it written?

"For reasons of ideology. Because the authors of the Bible, people from Judah at the end of the seventh century BCE, in the period of King Josiah, had a long score to settle with the northern kingdom, with its splendor and richness. They despised the northerners and had not forgotten their dominance in forging the Israelite experience, in the competition for the sites of ritual. Contrary to what is usually thought, the Israelites did not go to pray in Jerusalem. They had a temple in Samaria (today's Sebastia) and at Beit El (Bethel). In our book we tried to show that as long as Israel was there, Judah was small and frightened, militarily and internationally. Judah and Jerusalem were on the fringes. A small tribe. There was nothing there. A small temple and that's all."

And the kingdom of Israel?

"The archaeological findings show that Israel was a large, prosperous state, and was the main story until its destruction in the eighth century. Its geographic location was excellent, on the coast, near Phoenicia, Assyria and Syria. It had a diverse demographic composition: foreign residents and workers, Canaanites, Phoenicians; there was an Aramean population in the Jordan Valley, and there were mixed marriages. It was only 150 years after Israel's destruction that Judah rose to greatness, becoming self-aware and developing the monotheistic approach: one state, one God, one capital, one temple, one king."

What is the root of the tension between archaeology and the text, and what happened during Josiah's reign?

"We think these ideas of Judah, that all the Israelites have to worship one God in one temple, and live under the rule of one king, sprang up in the seventh century BCE. If anyone had raised such ideas aloud before 720, he would have been beaten to a pulp by the northern monarchs. Everything started to come together after the destruction of the kingdom of Israel, and it also had a territorial aspect: from 734 to 625 BCE the Assyrian Empire ruled here. Today's American empire is negligible in comparison, in terms of its power and its crushing strength. For example, if someone in Judah had talked about expansion into Assyrian-dominated territories in 720, that would have been the end of him. King Hezekiah tried, and we saw happened to him. Sennacherib, king of Assyria, arrived with a huge army and decimated him.

"But a few years later, when Josiah was in power, something incredible happened. Assyria, the kingdom of evil, collapsed in front of his eyes. In the same way we saw the Berlin Wall collapse in 1989, that's what happened to Assyria. It fell apart and beat a hasty retreat from the Land of Israel. By this time the kingdom of Israel no longer existed, so Josiah woke up one morning, looked to his left and to his right, and there was neither an Assyrian nor an Israelite to be seen. And then his officials decided to put into practice their religious and territorial ideas."

Still, why was the United Monarchy invented?

"Because they wanted to seize control of the territories of the kingdom of Israel and annex them, because, they said, `These territories are actually ours and if you have a minute, we'll tell you how that's so. `Many years ago, one of our kings, David, reigned in Jerusalem and ruled them, and we are the only ones who have a historical claim to them' - and so the myth was created. `The kings of Israel were scoundrels,' the people of Judah said, `but as for the people there, we have no problem with them, they are all right.' They said about Israel what an ultra-Orthodox person would say about you or me: `Israel, though he has sinned, is still Israel.'"

link

So Jerusalem was the capital of Judah, not Israel

Old Post Jul-13-2005 19:10  England
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ronk
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Earth

quote:
Do you know every single Palestinian?

no, but most of them support terrorism.

quote:
Also I'm not sure but I dont think Jerusalem was ever part of the Kingdom of Israel (altho I might have got that the wrong way round) as the Kingdom of Israel only compromised [which ever one is the northern region - Judia or Samaria I have no idea which way round they are!] which did not include Jerusalem (I'll try and find a link cos I may be mistaken on that part)

about that link......
the title says it all: "THE UK POSITION ON JERUSALEM"
I don't give a damn about the uk position on Jerusalem, because they occupied Israel 50 +/- years ago! who the hell are them to decide whether Jerusalem is a part of Israel or not?!

quote:
So Jerusalem was the capital of Judah, not Israel

look, King David occupied the area from the Jebusites who no longer exist, and built the city of Jerusalem in Israel. hence Jerusalem belong to the Jewish people and is a part of Israel.
moreover, the Jewish people are all offsprings of the people of Judah (that's why we're called Jewish -> Judah, Jewish, Judah, Jewish, Judah..... ). so, Jerusalem belongs to us Jewish, Israel belongs to us Jewish -->> Jerusalem belongs to Israel.


___________________
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Old Post Jul-13-2005 20:06  Israel
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George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London

quote:
Originally posted by ronk
no, but most of them support terrorism.

Link?


quote:
about that link......
the title says it all: "THE UK POSITION ON JERUSALEM"
I don't give a damn about the uk position on Jerusalem, because they occupied Israel 50 +/- years ago! who the hell are them to decide whether Jerusalem is a part of Israel or not?!

That view represents the view of the international community. If you think otherwise tell me a country that recognises Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem. The only one I can think of that might is America but I dont even think they do


quote:
look, King David occupied the area from the Jebusites who no longer exist, and built the city of Jerusalem in Israel. hence Jerusalem belong to the Jewish people and is a part of Israel.
moreover, the Jewish people are all offsprings of the people of Judah (that's why we're called Jewish -> Judah, Jewish, Judah, Jewish, Judah..... ). so, Jerusalem belongs to us Jewish, Israel belongs to us Jewish -->> Jerusalem belongs to Israel.

Jerusalem was the capital of Judah, not Israel which was an entirely different kingdom. And besides, what gives the Jews the right to claim Jerusalem when it is a holy city of Christainity and Islam as well?

Old Post Jul-13-2005 20:24  England
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Cyrus King
Anti NeoCon Addict



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto

quote:
Originally posted by ronk
Israel belong to us, it's only Britain who gave the palestinians a promise about some parts of this land, because they were afraid of terror acts from them against the british who lived and ruled here 50± years ago.

but you call us terrorists?
the palestinians are scumbags who kill innocent people!
did you freaking know that a palestinian women was about to blow herself up in an Israeli hospital (where I was hospitalized a year ago, and you can't even imagine the numerous arabs who were hospitalized there too) if it weren't a soldier who stopped her in the right moment?!
or..do you know about the bombing yesterday in Netania, after 5 MONTHS of cease fire?!


Jerusalem, by the way, is a part of Israel and its capital ever since it was built by King David.
and I'd like a link to the "international community" where they say Jerusalem isn't a part of Israel and isn't Israel's capital city.



AHHAHHAHA... i bet you arent even middle eastern.. you are caucasian. You have NO ANCESTRY IN PALESTINE!!! And dont give me your moses shit.

KING DAVID??? haahhahah

why dont the persians go into IRaq since Darius made Babylon the persian empires capital THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO???? Get real.. you zionists use ancient scriptures and religion to justify an only jewish land. Thats pathetic and lame. You may have a religious connection to Palestine/Israel.. but the indeginous palestinian population has a stronger connection to that land. THey were there for thousands of years after the Jews were exp[elled... generations after generations of palestinians have been residing there, cultivating the land.. living in a peaceful peasant state... up until those horrible zionist monsters ravaged, raped and STOLE this land. THIEVES... thats what you will be ...

Your people will continue to be cursed in that region, they will never be accepted. Even Europe condemns you guys. The only friend you have is America...and thats becuase you have a chritian zionist moron as your president along with a strong jewish lobby


___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

Old Post Jul-13-2005 22:02 
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ronk
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Earth

quote:
Originally posted by Cyrus King
AHHAHHAHA... i bet you arent even middle eastern.. you are caucasian. You have NO ANCESTRY IN PALESTINE!!! And dont give me your moses shit.

KING DAVID??? haahhahah

why dont the persians go into IRaq since Darius made Babylon the persian empires capital THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO???? Get real.. you zionists use ancient scriptures and religion to justify an only jewish land. Thats pathetic and lame. You may have a religious connection to Palestine/Israel.. but the indeginous palestinian population has a stronger connection to that land. THey were there for thousands of years after the Jews were exp[elled... generations after generations of palestinians have been residing there, cultivating the land.. living in a peaceful peasant state... up until those horrible zionist monsters ravaged, raped and STOLE this land. THIEVES... thats what you will be ...

Your people will continue to be cursed in that region, they will never be accepted. Even Europe condemns you guys. The only friend you have is America...and thats becuase you have a chritian zionist moron as your president along with a strong jewish lobby


heh, you made my left ball smile


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Old Post Jul-13-2005 22:49  Israel
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Cyrus King
Anti NeoCon Addict



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto

quote:
Originally posted by ronk
heh, you made my left ball smile


You have balls?


___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

Old Post Jul-13-2005 22:52 
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