Of course, with the state of our prison systems, both would be out in half the time onto parole anyway, but that's not the point...

I am of the opinion that nothing that does its 'thinking' with a physical body can have free will, because of the the reasons stated earlier.

However, I reckon that beings that can think without a physical body (like 'God' supposedly does so - if this is possible) would be able to have proper free will, because nothing constrains them. The real problem with this is getting something that can think without existing in the conventional sense - but it's of course possible that some as yet undiscovered phenomena would make this possible.

Last edited by Chris Larkin on Aug-10-2005 at 15:49

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Larkin I am of the opinion that nothing that does its 'thinking' with a physical body cannot have free will, because of the the reasons stated earlier.

Watch those double-negatives--makes things make no sense!

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Originally posted by Shakka Watch those double-negatives--makes things make no sense!

Fixed. I should really bother proof reading before posting.

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Originally posted by Dupz Okay, before I start I have to admit that I'm not much of a filosofical person. I usually catch the philosophical threads by the time they're 14 pages long, and I never have the time to catch up. Anyway, I'll contribute my useless opinion anyway Psy-T, you mention that you would never make decisions that will lead to more pain than pleasure. I'm guessing you suggest that you will always, by instinct/physics or whatever, make a choice that will lead to your optimal outcome. Suggesting that our choices are already preconceived.. perhaps?? I have a problem with this..... The reason why I disagree is because of a little thing called "game theory". If you have watched the movie "A Beautiful Mind" with Russel Crowe in it, you'd be familiar with the concept. How does economics come into this discussion? Well, recall the scene in the bar where Crowe's character and his friends are trying to hit on some hot bird. I'm not going to use the example from the movie but of an example known as "prisoners dilemma". What I will demonstrate is that the logical choices that people make are not always in their own best interest, even though the logical viewpoint would suggest otherwise. What I have show, below, is what is called a 'payoff' matrix, where we have two people, Joe and Bob, who have been questioned by police about a crime. -----------------------------------Joe-------------------------------- --------------------------Confess------Dont Confess------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------Confess---------10,10----------0,20------------------------ Bob------------------------------------------------------------------- ------Dont Confess---------20,0-----------1,1------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The table is read like this: Each prisoner chooses one of the two strategies. In effect, Joe chooses a column and Bob chooses a row. They either confess, or dont confess to the crime. The two numbers in each cell (ie. 10,10 or 0,20) tell the outcomes for the two prisoners when the corresponding pair of strategies is chosen. The number to the left of the comma tells the payoff to the person who chooses the rows (Bob) while the number to the right of the column tells the payoff to the person who chooses the columns (Joe). Thus (reading down the first column) if they both confess, each gets 10 years jail, but if Joe confesses and Bob does not, Bob gets 20 and Joe goes free. So: How does this situation resolve itself? What strategies are "rational" if both men want to minimise the time they spend in jail? Joe might reason as follows: "Two things can happen: Bob can confess or Bob can keep quiet. Suppose Bob confesses. Then I get 20 years if I don't confess, 10 years if I do, so in that case it's best to confess. On the other hand, if Bob doesn't confess, and I don't either, I get a year; but in that case, if I confess I can go free. Either way, it's best if I confess. Therefore, I'll confess." But Bob can and presumably will reason in the same way, so that they both confess and go to prison for 10 years each. Yet, if they had acted "irrationally," and kept quiet, they each could have gotten off with one year each. My point. Making a choice that leads to 'pain' is often better than a choice that leads to 'pleasure'. Logic is not always "logical", and if logic is merely a result of chemical reactions in our brain, perfected over millions of years, then being able to act irrationally and still coming out on top (or to be in a 'pleasurable' state) is an example of our minds working against the laws of nature.. So, yes, I do believe in free will.

you made your choice because you thought it will bring you the least amount of pain. i dont see how this contradicts my point

___________________
People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
Jackson, venomX, jamie, Renegade, Konjin, Akridrot, Miss Bliss.
Psy-T - Down The Rabbit Hole (400minute long acid set)

Okay I thought about this just now while I was in the shower (yes I'm geeky enough to keep thinking about subjects like these all day) and no I haven't had a chance to read any of the other responses that have been made since the last time I posted but I will get to those when I get back from my PT.

What about the person who commits adultery on their significant other? Theoritically, they are choosing the pleasure path of the moment but we all know affairs don't work out, so in the end, they are choosing the path with more pain. Because that path is the one and the same that will bring pain and torment to their significant others and their families.

So it could be said!

That you are choosing the path which leads to more pain.

___________________
aka Tits McGee
aka Chesty LaRue
aka Busty St. Claire

quote:

Originally posted by squirrelly Okay I thought about this just now while I was in the shower (yes I'm geeky enough to keep thinking about subjects like these all day) and no I haven't had a chance to read any of the other responses that have been made since the last time I posted but I will get to those when I get back from my PT. What about the person who commits adultery on their significant other? Theoritically, they are choosing the pleasure path of the moment but we all know affairs don't work out, so in the end, they are choosing the path with more pain. Because that path is the one and the same that will bring pain and torment to their significant others and their families. So it could be said! That you are choosing the path which leads to more pain.

some people who commit adultery do get away with it, i can only assume most of them hope to get away with it, or maybe even believe they'll get away with it.
thus, i believe they are considering the opportunity to have an affair a more pleasurable option than the option to refuse it.

___________________
People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
Jackson, venomX, jamie, Renegade, Konjin, Akridrot, Miss Bliss.
Psy-T - Down The Rabbit Hole (400minute long acid set)

quote:

Originally posted by squirrelly Okay I thought about this just now while I was in the shower (yes I'm geeky enough to keep thinking about subjects like these all day) and no I haven't had a chance to read any of the other responses that have been made since the last time I posted but I will get to those when I get back from my PT. What about the person who commits adultery on their significant other? Theoritically, they are choosing the pleasure path of the moment but we all know affairs don't work out, so in the end, they are choosing the path with more pain. Because that path is the one and the same that will bring pain and torment to their significant others and their families. So it could be said! That you are choosing the path which leads to more pain.

Well they choose the way cause they dont really consider the consequences as much as they should. So they choose less pain, but not a smart decion. As trancaholic said before, just because you think you choose the best way, doesnt meant that it is, especially not in the eyes of someone else, and in hindsight.

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Originally posted by squirrelly Okay I thought about this just now while I was in the shower

pics or stfu

No, I agree with Psy-T and St_Andrew: I guess adultery usually is initiated in the throes of passion, and not the result of a long deliberation. Or it might be that the person commiting the adultery doesn't really appreciate his or her family.
Similar reasoning explains why (some?) fat people keep eating candy. In the long run it's the wrong choice, but given the craving for the candy in the moment, that desire can suppres the desire to become slim and healthy.

hmm, i was hoping for some more ideas & comments.

guess this is it though, kraftwerk said it best: "we are the robots"

but on a more serious note, how and why are we skipping the randomness idea brought out from the movie (on the basis of qunatum physics)?

___________________
People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
Jackson, venomX, jamie, Renegade, Konjin, Akridrot, Miss Bliss.
Psy-T - Down The Rabbit Hole (400minute long acid set)

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic I would say that the negative consequences of suicide is 1: the pain involved in killing yourself, 2: the sadness you know you will bring those who love you, and 3: if you believe in "something after death", the risk of not knowing if you end up in a situation worse than the one you're in right now. As to 1, I think that we can agree that it is a non-issue if you're already in pain due to some illness. If you're "only" suffering psychologically then you must somehow value psychological well-being much higher than physical well-being if you take the suicide route. For 2, the same kind of reasoning would say that a person who's already without loved ones (the majority of suicidal people I would venture to claim) has no issues here. And if the suicidal person do have loved ones, it might be that other concerns outweigh this concern. About 3, then I guess it's a toss up whether you think that the action of suicide is in someway affecting what afterlife you will get, or if you foresee anything happening, if you live on, that will change your afterlife. And again, other concerns might outweigh the risk (like someone about to go broke might run the risk of commiting an armed robbery). Obviously, 3 is not an issue if you don't believe in an afterlife. I've had suicide pretty close in my life, and can promise you that I have seen situations where people are only living because they know how much they mean to other people, and value not hurting these loved ones more than the relief of not having to live. As an agnostic who lives as a materialist, I don't myself see any particular reason to live, yet I don't have any reason to kill myself either. If I was put in a situation where I was diagnosed with, say, terminal cancer, that would change, and I would most definitely off myself before too much pain set in, even if it meant that my loved ones would have to do without me for a little while longer than if I endured the natural route to death. Same goes for senility, where suicide would be a great escape from being a lonely undignified baby in a retirement home.

Great escape but it could still be considered a painful route can it not? Are we looking at decisions that bring pain only to yourself or to everyone around you? Because you might be bringing pain to yourself because you never know what the future might bring you, so in ending your life too quickly, you might actually be choosing the unwise, and more painful route. Again we have to consider if we are talking about psychological pain or physical pain. Because suicide might be a psychological escape but a very painful physical decision. Not only that but if we are talking about the whole situation rather than just the specifics of one person, you could be causing more pain for all of those around you, thus bringing about a more painful situation.

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Originally posted by Aquarian It just depends on your definition of free will. By it's official definition, yes, we have free will. The point of the argument is that whatever you choose, you will have chosen because it is in your nature to do so.

Yes but we are trying to break down the true meaning of free will and based on evidence if there really is such a thing as free will. As Derek already stated, if we are incapable of making the choice that would bring us more pain than pleasure, do we really have free will?

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Originally posted by Psy-T some people who commit adultery do get away with it, i can only assume most of them hope to get away with it, or maybe even believe they'll get away with it. thus, i believe they are considering the opportunity to have an affair a more pleasurable option than the option to refuse it.

Yes, but there are exceptions to every case, you cannot base an entire theory on the fact that a few people get away of it. It can be agreed by a majority that MOST who commit adultery do NOT get away with it. Again, we have to decide what kind of situation we're dealing with when we're talking about pain.

Situation one: One person vs. pleasure/pain vs. the current timing.

If we go with situation one, then it can be said that the ONE person is choosing PLESURE at the CURRENT time.

Situation two: One person vs. pleasure/pain vs. the future.

Now, if we go with this situation we have to look ahead a bit into the future. If we do this, and we're making the assumption that eventually this person will get caught. Whether or not the marraige is saved or there is a divorce, the person then goes through pain because his past decisions led to a painful situation where his family falls apart and there is distrust and a very sticky and messy situation for all parties involved.

Situation three: Everyone connected through the decision vs. pleasure/pain vs. the future.

Now, if we go with THIS one, we can see that the person who commits adultery really does choose the more painful of the situations. Why? Because the person who he/she is committing adultery with goes through pain because they cannot truly be with the person but have to live a lie. The person commiting also has pain because they are torn between giving up a life that they already have and giving up a momentary pleasure. The person committing's significant other/family is put through a painful situation because of the fact that he is committing adultery and thus in the end, the person ends up choosing the more painful situation because everyone in the family goes experiences great pain because of his decision.

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Originally posted by St_Andrew Well they choose the way cause they dont really consider the consequences as much as they should. So they choose less pain, but not a smart decion. As trancaholic said before, just because you think you choose the best way, doesnt meant that it is, especially not in the eyes of someone else, and in hindsight.

How are they choosing less pain by committing adultery? They will get caught eventually (most people do) and in the end they will be in a painful, not pleasureable situation. The option of less pain would be to end things with the current significant other rather than committing adultery, would it not?

quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T hmm, i was hoping for some more ideas & comments. guess this is it though, kraftwerk said it best: "we are the robots" but on a more serious note, how and why are we skipping the randomness idea brought out from the movie (on the basis of qunatum physics)?

Without actually watching the movie I can't really make a good argument.

___________________
aka Tits McGee
aka Chesty LaRue
aka Busty St. Claire

quote:

Originally posted by squirrelly Great escape but it could still be considered a painful route can it not? Are we looking at decisions that bring pain only to yourself or to everyone around you? Because you might be bringing pain to yourself because you never know what the future might bring you, so in ending your life too quickly, you might actually be choosing the unwise, and more painful route. Again we have to consider if we are talking about psychological pain or physical pain. Because suicide might be a psychological escape but a very painful physical decision. Not only that but if we are talking about the whole situation rather than just the specifics of one person, you could be causing more pain for all of those around you, thus bringing about a more painful situation.

first of all, we're talking about pain/pleasure to yourself and only yourself, be it psychological or physical, immediate or ultimate.
whichever is more important to you at the very moment.

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Originally posted by squirrelly Yes, but there are exceptions to every case, you cannot base an entire theory on the fact that a few people get away of it. It can be agreed by a majority that MOST who commit adultery do NOT get away with it. Again, we have to decide what kind of situation we're dealing with when we're talking about pain.

i just doubt they'd do it if they didnt want to get caught and thought they would get caught. furthermore i doubt their mental proccesses are the same when presented with the opportunity to commit adultery.

quote:

Originally posted by squirrelly How are they choosing less pain by committing adultery? They will get caught eventually (most people do) and in the end they will be in a painful, not pleasureable situation. The option of less pain would be to end things with the current significant other rather than committing adultery, would it not?

1. they are not expecting pain.
2. they might be aware of the risk but that might even be hightening their pleasure - doing something bad.
3. it's not the ultimate path that matters in this case, but the instant one, of feeding the crave.

quote:

Originally posted by squirrelly Without actually watching the movie I can't really make a good argument.

you're only missing the hand gestures and the distracting animation, i typed the entire relavant scene, other scenes are completely unattached to it.

___________________
People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
Jackson, venomX, jamie, Renegade, Konjin, Akridrot, Miss Bliss.
Psy-T - Down The Rabbit Hole (400minute long acid set)