For starters, it wasn't about trying to "blame" Clinton, rather it was a response to the above tool who still maintained that WMD's never existed. It is a fact they existed. Dead kurds littered in the streets because they were attacked by their own leader with chemical weapons should've been all the proof necessary. Mass graves, yeah must've been a weather phenomenon or something. So not blaming Clinton, the fact remains that this country and her allies have maintained for years that Hussein was in possession of WMD's and certainly had the capability and desire to manufacture and pursue a WMD development operation. They were not destroyed after the first Gulf War. Furthermore, it's no big secret that containment is a bullshit policy that is the rough equivalent of turning a blind-eye to something awful as long as it isn't happening in your own back yard. There are some (not you) who maintain that there is some massive conspiracy by the current administration to start this whole terror war for political gain(a la Howard Dean suggesting that Bush knew about 9/11 before it happened). If Dubya lied, they all lied. And if they all lied, so be it, but goddammit, it's not about some dark Sith Lord pulling strings behind the scenes. The anti-crowd seems to think a zebra can change its stripes. I don't need to read one of your long diatribes to know that. Frankly (and no offense to you), I simply don't have the time to read every word in your post. You know I respect you, but I think you may have jumped to the wrong conclusion based on my post. My response to you was more on the topic of Cindy Sheehan.

The argument about Tammy Pruett is more that she has a whole lot more on the line to lose than Cindy. I don't think it's right to try to even assign value to loss, but since everyone else is doing it, I'll offer my 2 cents on the matter. It sucks that Cindy lost her son. It sucks hard. But if you are trying to tell me that the Moveon.org crowd isn't pulling the strings now, I'll call BS. Not that I think Cindy's feelings on war have changed, but her message has certainly become more virulent as certain leftist mouthpieces have picked up on it and are running with it. And it's a harsh reality for her to face, but Casey died doing something he believed in, and her latest round of bashing seems more and more like a proverbial kick in the balls to her dead son's memory. And sure, Cindy has gotten a lot of attention and the supporters of what we're doing in Iraq are certainly aware of that and are playing some defense. That doesn't mean that one is definitively right while the other is definitively wrong. My spiteful (you call it being an asshole) tone probably stems from the fact that I listen to Randy Rhodes on the way home, and if there is one political pundit that makes me want to rip my eyes out and cut off my own balls and use them for earplugs, she is it. I guess I bring that on myself.

Last edited by Shakka on Aug-26-2005 at 17:43

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka For starters, it wasn't about trying to "blame" Clinton, rather it was a response to the above tool who still maintained that WMD's never existed. It is a fact they existed. Dead kurds littered in the streets because they were attacked by their own leader with chemical weapons should've been all the proof necessary. Mass graves, yeah must've been a weather phenomenon or something. So not blaming Clinton, the fact remains that this country and her allies have maintained for years that Hussein was in possession of WMD's and certainly had the capability and desire to manufacture and pursue a WMD development operation. They were not destroyed after the first Gulf War. Furthermore, it's no big secret that containment is a bullshit policy that is the rough equivalent of turning a blind-eye to something awful as long as it isn't happening in your own back yard. There are some (not you) who maintain that there is some massive conspiracy by the current administration to start this whole terror war for political gain(a la Howard Dean suggesting that Bush knew about 9/11 before it happened). If Dubya lied, they all lied. And if they all lied, so be it, but goddammit, it's not about some dark Sith Lord pulling strings behind the scenes. The anti-crowd seems to think a zebra can change its stripes. I don't need to read one of your long diatribes to know that. Frankly (and no offense to you), I simply don't have the time to read every word in your post. You know I respect you, but I think you may have jumped to the wrong conclusion based on my post. My response to you was more on the topic of Cindy Sheehan. The argument about Tammy Pruett is more that she has a whole lot more on the line to lose than Cindy. I don't think it's right to try to even assign value to loss, but since everyone else is doing it, I'll offer my 2 cents on the matter. It sucks that Cindy lost her son. It sucks hard. But if you are trying to tell me that the Moveon.org crowd isn't pulling the strings now, I'll call BS. Not that I think Cindy's feelings on war have changed, but her message has certainly become more virulent as certain leftist mouthpieces have picked up on it and are running with it. And it's a harsh reality for her to face, but Casey died doing something he believed in, and her latest round of bashing seems more and more like a proverbial kick in the balls to her dead son's memory. And sure, Cindy has gotten a lot of attention and the supporters of what we're doing in Iraq are certainly aware of that and are playing some defense. That doesn't mean that one is definitively right while the other is definitively wrong. My spiteful (you call it being an asshole) tone probably stems from the fact that I listen to Randy Rhodes on the way home, and if there is one political pundit that makes me want to rip my eyes out and cut off my own balls and use them for earplugs, she is it. I guess I bring that on myself.

Fair enough. Why do you keep listening to Rhodes, for God's sakes man? I can't even listen to her for very long. It's like putting yourself in the Clockwork Orange scenario room with your eyes stuck open.

Dean suggested Bush knew about 9/11 before it happened? Haven't heard that one. Did he maybe state that Bush had warnings ahead of time and SHOULD have known, or did he flat-out suggest Bush was behind it all?

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Fair enough. Why do you keep listening to Rhodes, for God's sakes man? I can't even listen to her for very long. It's like putting yourself in the Clockwork Orange scenario room with your eyes stuck open.

Beats the hell out of me. I really should stop. It makes my blood boil and then I get home and yell at the Mrs. Maybe it just keeps me awake while I'm driving. Maybe I do it to torture myself!

quote:

Dean suggested Bush knew about 9/11 before it happened? Haven't heard that one. Did he maybe state that Bush had warnings ahead of time and SHOULD have known, or did he flat-out suggest Bush was behind it all?

What happened was that he said there was a theory going around that Bush knew, but that it was purely a theory. I guess what angered the right so much was simply that he would bring it up when it was so proposterous. I'm sure he knew it was BS, but by dropping that little piece of bait he gave a lot of ammo to the conspiracy crowd. Probably not that big a deal, but nevertheless, he did drop it and called it "the most interesting theory". I think he did it on purpose, but as Dean says, "it can't be proved."

When asked why Bush was trying to suppress the release of the 9/11 report, he said:

quote:

Diane Rehm: "Why do you think he [Bush] is suppressing that [Sept. 11] report?" Howard Dean: "I don't know. There are many theories about it. The most interesting theory that I've heard so far -- which is nothing more than a theory, it can't be proved -- is that he was warned ahead of time by the Saudis. Now who knows what the real situation is?"

With hindsight being 20/20, a lot of people probably should've seen something coming, though I doubt anyone would've predicted exactly what happened and the timing of it. But no, I don't think he suggested Bush was a mastermind of sorts.

OK--looking back at my above post, I think I mixed two thoughts together to imply Dean said Bush was a mastermind. I meant that he gave fodder to those that wanted to believe the outlandish theory. My head hurts.


So how is school going? My job is kicking my ass. Off to Hilton Head tomorrow for a week to try and find my wits. God knows I need it!

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka What happened was that he said there was a theory going around that Bush knew, but that it was purely a theory. I guess what angered the right so much was simply that he would bring it up when it was so proposterous. I'm sure he knew it was BS, but by dropping that little piece of bait he gave a lot of ammo to the conspiracy crowd. Probably not that big a deal, but nevertheless, he did drop it and called it "the most interesting theory". I think he did it on purpose, but as Dean says, "it can't be proved." When asked why Bush was trying to suppress the release of the 9/11 report, he said: With hindsight being 20/20, a lot of people probably should've seen something coming, though I doubt anyone would've predicted exactly what happened and the timing of it. But no, I don't think he suggested Bush was a mastermind of sorts. OK--looking back at my above post, I think I mixed two thoughts together to imply Dean said Bush was a mastermind. I meant that he gave fodder to those that wanted to believe the outlandish theory. My head hurts.

Hmm, I think I remember that one now - typical Dean I guess. I still love the guy, but he does fly off the handle a bit.

quote:

So how is school going? My job is kicking my ass. Off to Hilton Head tomorrow for a week to try and find my wits. God knows I need it!

Have fun. School's bending me over right now, which is why I'm procrastinating so badly.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 Stop wishing that your boy is not a liar. BTW, you can still hunt for those WMD's by enlisting.

quote:

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." - President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998 "If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." - President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998 "Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face." - Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998 "He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983." - Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998 "[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." - Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin (D-MI), Tom Daschle (D-SD), John Kerry( D - MA), and others Oct. 9, 1998 "Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." - Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998 "Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies." - Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999 "There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." - Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001 "We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them." - Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002 "We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 "Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 "We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002 "The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..." - Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002 "I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002 "There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002 "He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do" - Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002 "In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members.. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." - Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002 "We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002 "Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real." - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

should i post other countries intelligence reports about what was thought to be true about his WMD's prior to 2000?

you suffer from a severe case of ideological myopia son.

you're the one that has fallen for the Democratic Party, anti-war, Socialist, propagandist agenda (lies)

BTW i am currently enlisted (active). have been for over 9 years now. so go fuck yourself

The Nanci Pelosi and Ted Kennedy quotes are my personal favorites.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo BTW i am currently enlisted (active). have been for over 9 years now. so go fuck yourself

Good job!
As a neighboring Canadian....thanks

A lot of those quote I've seen before and the Clinton administration is notorious and doing absoultely DICK about terrorism; oh minus the criuse missiles they sent to hit some camel in the ass in the middle of the desert...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka I think what has Dems so riled up is that Dubya did what Clinton never had the sack to do and now they're fighting an uphill battle to get back the power and control they're so obsessed with. So Clinton lied too, and of course all of the Dems(John Kerry in particular) who proclaimed that Saddam/Iraq had WMDs before the war were all liars too, but the only one that really lied was Dubya, right? Because he actually did something about it instead of having a talkathon. I guess your boys are liars too, eh? Oh wait, I forgot, Dubya only wants oil. Unless of course you still maintain that all of the WMD capabilities were destroyed in the early 90's or that they never even existed in the first place! The hardest decisions to make are often times the least popular.

I am non-partisan. So I don't wish any dems, reps, green, libs, pros, cons were in office. Just liars out but that's a stretch.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo should i post other countries intelligence reports about what was thought to be true about his WMD's prior to 2000?

Don't waste your time. I am not pro-dem as you assume. I have had people call me pro-zionist, pro-islamist, pro-whatever, so name calling is not going to make me upset. You wanted some proof from the current administration. You fail to realize is that all parties are acountable for the actions in Iraq. To assume one, whether democrat or republican, is for the common man, well you would be diluting yourself. Go vote then if you think that can make a difference. Please spare me the "my party line is better than your party line" rhetoric. Look at your paycheck and notice 30% goes to taxes. Wait till 50% goes to taxes and then you'll want them to take 70%.

quote:

you suffer from a severe case of ideological myopia son.

You're wasting whatever medical degree you have by telling me that. As well as breaking doctor client confidentiality by posting such medical diagnosis online in a public forum. You should seek to run a medical facility, because your talents are not needed here.

quote:

you're the one that has fallen for the Democratic Party, anti-war, Socialist, propagandist agenda (lies)

Like I actually want a USSA (United Socialist States of America) to flourish. For me to want to see at least 20 million people sent to gulags here in the US. You've got to be joking right?

People can be anti-war and non-partisan, you know. You don't see me labeling you. Don't label me.

quote:

BTW i am currently enlisted (active). have been for over 9 years now. so go fuck yourself

I don't get it.

You want me to feel for you when you use language like that? You want me to side with you when you write things like that? How could you ever win my heart and mind when you act like a child instead of an adult.

But carry on. You have no individuality. You life is regimented. You take orders without question. Your mind is not of your own.

Don't be a fool and cherish your life, because you only have one life to live.

___________________

it was a friendly quip saying "go f**k yourself". hence, . responding to your friendly quip for me to enlist and look for WMD's. once again i find us getting off track here.

i didn't label you as anything. really. just that there is an agenda or agendas out there that would see Bush impeached for so much as being a Texan as being a liar that Sheehan is suggesting. it's not going to happen. it's a tired argument. anyone that hasn't fallen in to the incoherency of the "Bush lied about WMD's" black hole knows this. that would be 98% of the smartest people in the world. i'll take that "regimented individuality" any day of the week.

before i enlisted i made eyeglasses for a few years (you know, the dweebs in the labjackets that work behind the windows at those 1 hr. places) Myopia (near-sightedness) is just a fancy term to me.

You're denying that he got this country into a war about lies.

Of which, if you go back on all my Iraq related posts they would mention that he lied.

I am not on the camp casey bandwagon nor plan on being there.

For you or anyone to equate me with having a partisan slant is silly at best to outrageous at large.

But you are in the pro-war camp. So it goes without saying that you would be in danger of violating US Code Title 18 Part 1 Chapter 47 Subsection 1001 which in part reads:

quote:

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, WHOEVER, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully— (1) falsifies, conceals, or covers up by ANY trick, scheme, or device a material fact; (2) makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation; or (3) makes or USES any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry; shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both. (b) Subsection (a) does not apply to a party to a judicial proceeding, or that party's counsel, for statements, representations, writings or documents submitted by such party or counsel to a judge or magistrate in that proceeding. (c) With respect to any matter within the jurisdiction of the legislative branch, subsection (a) shall apply only to— (1) administrative matters, including a claim for payment, a matter related to the procurement of property or services, personnel or employment practices, or support services, or a document required by law, rule, or regulation to be submitted to the Congress or any office or officer within the legislative branch; or (2) any investigation or review, conducted pursuant to the authority of any committee, subcommittee, commission or office of the Congress, consistent with applicable rules of the House or Senate.

And if you are in the military your have sworn to uphold the law.

___________________