I notice that the word "fairness" comes up a lot in these type of discussions. Minimum wages are 'fair' apparently. I mean, it is a bit of a joke. It might be 'fair' to the lower paid workers who are on this wage when they're labour is really worth fcuk all (lets face it, some people cant work for shit), but is it fair on everyone else in society supporting this celebration of mediocrity?

Before you start firing up I currently have 2 part time jobs, one on the minimum wage and one well above the minimum wage. This includes working at the local cinema as an usher (something i've done since i started uni), and I also tutor classes at uni (which pays a bucket load per hour).. Now, of course I'm better off under the minimum wage scheme, but it's really not fair on the business i work for. Are they making millions of dollars a year in the business??? probably.. but that's not the point, it's still unfair on them. Besides what should i give a fcuk what someone else earns anyway? (that includes businesses and/or individuals)..

People are obsessed with equality in wages where it holds no grounds in efficiency and/or fairness... I get paid fcuk all in my cinemas job because i do NOTHING!!, for a bunch of customers that pay a few bucks for a ticket. I get paid 6 times that wage in my tutoring job because I'm teaching students who are paying thousands of dollars to sit there and learn of topics MUCH more productive. Seems pretty fair to me. Does that mean the CEO of the cinema/university (or whatever company for that matter) should earn more than me?? By a substantial amount even?? probably... but really, who gives a shit anyway?? This guys wage has absolutely nothing to do with me. I mean, we do have to pay them a lot anyway, otherwise other companies snatch up their productive services by paying them more. But hey, lets give the CEO a pay cut, so we can redistribute his wage amongst the 20,000 minimum wage workers under him.. yay, I get a 2 cent payrise and now we've created a system that's unfair to the CEO's of this world, and AGAIN rewards mediocrity (even if it is by 2 cents )

Do minimum wages create unemployment?? In theory, yes. In practice, yes/no. What is for certain though, is that with any increase in the price of the productive process the end result would mean an increase in prices.. Yay!! more fairness for the workers at the expense of the consumer!! Oh, and lets not forget that profits go down as expenses go up. Yeah, that's fair for shareholders (which are often you mum and dad investors lets not forget). Lets just remember that minimum wages are merely a form or redistributing money away from businesses and consumers into the pockets of workers. You hurt two parties in order to benefit one. But companies make billions of dollars a year, you say. SO? We're talking about fairness, true? and the only way we can achieve fairness is that we have outcomes that are both mathematically efficient and do NOT hurt any single party at the benefit of another.

Oh, and if you're going to whinge about petrol prices you dont get any sympathy from me. Sure we have a problem with monopoly power, but hey, if you dont like the price, DONT BUY IT!! It's your own fault for living a life that's unsustainable anyway..

___________________
A witty saying proves nothing.
-Voltaire

Who woulda thunk such great coincidences like these? I mean, first Bush suspends minimum wage for rebuilding, then we find out all the backscratching Bush continues to do with all his good 'ol boys:

quote:

"Companies with ties to the Bush White House and the former head of FEMA are clinching some of the administration's first disaster relief and reconstruction contracts in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina." http://edition.cnn.com/2005/POLITIC...reut/index.html

Hey, it's good to know the king!

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

I'm afraid ppl eking out a living on minimum wage without health benefits might hurt corporate profits. got to love "compationate" conservatives

Last edited by igottaknow on Sep-12-2005 at 02:04

Well, as someone already pointed out, lower labor costs equal lower prices. A lower cost of living means people can get by with less money. Its just simply more efficient.

___________________
Lost Souls

quote:

Originally posted by igottaknow I'm afraid ppl eking out a living on minimum wage without health benefits might hurt corporate profits. got to love "compationate" conservatives

How so?
The largest financial albatrosses (albatrosi? ) around any corporation's neck are pension funds and health care benefits.

While min. wage does suck; gross is gross and net is gross(er); one would hope it should only be a stop-gap towards getting a better job...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r How so? The largest financial albatrosses (albatrosi? ) around any corporation's neck are pension funds and health care benefits. While min. wage does suck; gross is gross and net is gross(er); one would hope it should only be a stop-gap towards getting a better job...

Delta and Northwest filed for bankruptcy yesterday. This ought to be interesting. 40% of the seats flying in American airspace are now under bankruptcy. Northwest has a $63 million pension plan contribution that was supposed to be made today, but now they don't have to. See what high labor obligations does to a company. And imagine the employment losses if these companies aren't able to emerge from bankruptcy. Oh, and in response to an earlier post, even if say the CEO was getting paid $2 million, what's cutting his salary to $500,000 really going to do for companies like Delta and Northwest? Nothing!

___________________
My Top 5
1. Basic Perspective - A Step on the Other Side
2. Fragile - Shugyo (Perry O'Neil Remix)
3. Ferry Corsten - Watch Out!
4. G&D - Tracking Treasure Down
5. Riva - Lunar

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r How so? The largest financial albatrosses (albatrosi? ) around any corporation's neck are pension funds and health care benefits. While min. wage does suck; gross is gross and net is gross(er); one would hope it should only be a stop-gap towards getting a better job...

I was being sarcastic that corporations are suffering because they're required to pay minimum wage, a rate of pay that has fallen far behind what is necessary to support a family on. Its laughable to think the laws that are decidedly written in corporations favor should be overturned for even more accommodating rules. They would like you to believe it serves the greater good of the country, when in reality their intentions are motivated by greed.

They're always going on about in order to stay competitive in the global market they can't afford to pay Americans workers a decent wage and give them benefits. Katrina rebuilding is a clear cut case of the hollowness of that argument. Its a domestic job that will involve only American workers and the government will be writing out huge checks to do the work, so what seems to be the problem with paying them at least a minimum wage?

I don't know which is worse corporations who squeeze the lowest paid workers the hardest or politicians like Bush who oversee and facilitate their exploitation. The imbalance of salaries between executives and the common worker has never been greater and yet the common worker is always the one who's at fault. The underlining tragedy of Katrina wasn't the storm but the utter abandonment of the lower class by our government. The local, state, and federal government all turned to each other and said the poor weren't their responsibility.

We all have come to expect that the big corporations who benefit from our country won't lift a hand to help it. Where are all the oil and grain companies who used the New Orleans port for their commerce? Instead of price gouging us at the pump they should be the ones who contribute the most to the rebuilding of N.O. So, don't feel bad for them being obligated to pay minimum wage.

Btw, labor costs have nothing to do with the series of airlines bankruptcies. The sudden rise in jet fuel prices which by far is the airlines largest expense, has sent them into bankruptcy. Who's fault is that? The federal government who in their infinite wisdom has felt no need to lower the demand for oil by promoting conservation, funding the development of alternative energy, requiring car companies to build more fuel efficient cars, or funding mass transit. Every step of the way our government has shirked its responsibilities to our country's long term interest in favor of short term profits for greedy corporate America.

Last edited by igottaknow on Sep-16-2005 at 01:19

quote:

Originally posted by igottaknow The imbalance of salaries between executives and the common worker has never been greater

(before i reply, please dont take the tone of this reply as a direct attack on yourself.. I'm replying more to the issue, not your statement )

my question to this statement.. so what? Honestly, why does this bother people?? Why should they care what someone else is earning?? it's really none of your business..
If you think execs get paid too much, then offer the company to work in the position at a lower wage.. that's right, you're probably not good enough for the job. There are only a very small handful of people who are capable of the job within a market that demands their services so much. It's supply and demand people.. It's why the common worker gets paid relatively less (because every tom, dick and harry can do the work)

quote:

Btw, labor costs have nothing to do with the series of airlines bankruptcies. The sudden rise in jet fuel prices which by far is the airlines largest expense, has sent them into bankruptcy. Who's fault is that? The federal government who in their infinite wisdom has felt no need to lower the demand for oil by promoting conservation, funding the development of alternative energy, requiring car companies to build more fuel efficient cars, or funding mass transit. Every step of the way our government has shirked its responsibilities to our country's long term interest in favor of short term profits for greedy corporate America.

This I do happen to agree on
Minimum wages (although not helping the situation of the airlines) is probably not the biggest cause of US airlines going bust. Sure, it's a factor in the process, but most definately the higher oil price and the post-9/11 business environment are definately to blame.

and yes, this is the fault of the feds.. creating an economy that's reliant on an unsustainable energy source while not promoting the development of more sustainable methods of living is definately an example of short-term goals creating long-term problems. We can thank the inherent nature of democracy for that though... people dont want the government to make longterm decisions (that may take 50yrs to become worthwhile) They want results within the next 4 years or they vote the pricks out... yay for democracy!!

___________________
A witty saying proves nothing.
-Voltaire

quote:

Originally posted by Dupz (before i reply, please dont take the tone of this reply as a direct attack on yourself.. I'm replying more to the issue, not your statement )

As you can tell, I feel very strongly for the plight of the American worker. I haven't worked for min. wage in a long time so personally it doesn't effect me.

quote:

my question to this statement.. so what? Honestly, why does this bother people?? Why should they care what someone else is earning?? it's really none of your business.. If you think execs get paid too much, then offer the company to work in the position at a lower wage.. that's right, you're probably not good enough for the job. There are only a very small handful of people who are capable of the job within a market that demands their services so much. It's supply and demand people.. It's why the common worker gets paid relatively less (because every tom, dick and harry can do the work)

The only reason I brought up the imabalance was because if you're going to complain about labor costs you can't single out the lowest paid without talking about the hightest paid. This topic could be a thread in itself so I'll only skim the surface.

First and foremost, the imbalance is so great its morally repugnant. I forgot the latest figure, its something like corporate executives get paid 500 times the average worker.

Second the salaries are not fairly determined. Its like a old boys social club where executives sit on each other's boards to scratch each other's back with huge salaries and bonuses even when under their leadership the company has performed poorly.

Third you can't just sit back and say well that's just capitalism. The government responsibility is to keep capitalism in check for the greater good of society. That's why there is minimum wage. IMHOP I believe a salary cap should be implemented. Many sports organization have found it neccessary to implemented caps for the greater good of the sport.

Finally, what makes this country so great is the middle class. Do we want a country split into the ultra wealthy and the working poor? Countries with these condition endure social unrest where the lower class's only recourse is violence.

Last edited by igottaknow on Sep-16-2005 at 21:37

quote:

Originally posted by igottaknow I was being sarcastic that corporations are suffering because they're required to pay minimum wage, a rate of pay that has fallen far behind what is necessary to support a family on. Its laughable to think the laws that are decidedly written in corporations favor should be overturned for even more accommodating rules. They would like you to believe it serves the greater good of the country, when in reality their intentions are motivated by greed. They're always going on about in order to stay competitive in the global market they can't afford to pay Americans workers a decent wage and give them benefits. Katrina rebuilding is a clear cut case of the hollowness of that argument. Its a domestic job that will involve only American workers and the government will be writing out huge checks to do the work, so what seems to be the problem with paying them at least a minimum wage? I don't know which is worse corporations who squeeze the lowest paid workers the hardest or politicians like Bush who oversee and facilitate their exploitation. The imbalance of salaries between executives and the common worker has never been greater and yet the common worker is always the one who's at fault. The underlining tragedy of Katrina wasn't the storm but the utter abandonment of the lower class by our government. The local, state, and federal government all turned to each other and said the poor weren't their responsibility. We all have come to expect that the big corporations who benefit from our country won't lift a hand to help it. Where are all the oil and grain companies who used the New Orleans port for their commerce? Instead of price gouging us at the pump they should be the ones who contribute the most to the rebuilding of N.O. So, don't feel bad for them being obligated to pay minimum wage. Btw, labor costs have nothing to do with the series of airlines bankruptcies. The sudden rise in jet fuel prices which by far is the airlines largest expense, has sent them into bankruptcy. Who's fault is that? The federal government who in their infinite wisdom has felt no need to lower the demand for oil by promoting conservation, funding the development of alternative energy, requiring car companies to build more fuel efficient cars, or funding mass transit. Every step of the way our government has shirked its responsibilities to our country's long term interest in favor of short term profits for greedy corporate America.

How can you honestly say that labor costs have NOTHING to do with the airline bankruptcies? The reason that the companies are filing for bankruptcy is for protection from creditors, which includes contributions to pension funds...a very large contribution. Northwest filed in order to avoid their 63 million dollar contribution to their pension fund. Yes, jet fuel prices have gone through the roof and a company's inability to hedge a lower prices is a major cause. But the rise in jet fuel has made the airlines unable to make the SUBSTANTIAL payments to pension funds. And huge fixed costs with a highly variable revenue stream is a recipe for disaster. If they airlines did not have to make such large payments for pensions, then they wouldn't be in bankruptcy.

___________________
My Top 5
1. Basic Perspective - A Step on the Other Side
2. Fragile - Shugyo (Perry O'Neil Remix)
3. Ferry Corsten - Watch Out!
4. G&D - Tracking Treasure Down
5. Riva - Lunar

quote:

Originally posted by Vyper0987 How can you honestly say that labor costs have NOTHING to do with the airline bankruptcies? The reason that the companies are filing for bankruptcy is for protection from creditors, which includes contributions to pension funds...a very large contribution. Northwest filed in order to avoid their 63 million dollar contribution to their pension fund. Yes, jet fuel prices have gone through the roof and a company's inability to hedge a lower prices is a major cause. But the rise in jet fuel has made the airlines unable to make the SUBSTANTIAL payments to pension funds. And huge fixed costs with a highly variable revenue stream is a recipe for disaster. If they airlines did not have to make such large payments for pensions, then they wouldn't be in bankruptcy.

Did I miss something? What does this have to do with bush suspending minimum wage?