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| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
listen, you are stuck on this liberal cliche' that all my responses are "GOP talking points". |
They are. You repeat pretty much verbatum on what I hear on both Hannity, Limbaugh, Tony Snow, and the articles I catch on Newsmax and National Review. Call it whatever you want, but you are arguing the same points as they trickle them down.
| quote: | | while you fail to see the validity of my responses, blinded by hate and animosity, |
The only "hate" and "animosity" I really have is driven by complete and utter frustration by repetition passed down by this Administration. I can't help but say that I've fucking had it at this point. I've fucking had it with this fucking idiot Administration change rationales and attempt to wiggle their way out of their fucking mess that they created, all the while attempt to paint anyone who disagrees with them as unpatriotic, unAmerican, and hateful "liberals". It's fucking old and irrelevant, and the American people have finally awakened to it.
| quote: | | there is a real effort by Iraqi civs. Iraqi military, American civs., American military that ovewhelms YOUR interpretation of whats right and whats wrong, "talking points" or not. |
In no way am I belittling the efforts of the individuals who are trying to build Iraq back up after we fucking destroyed it to a pulp.
I am, however, belittling the unfortunate end-result of the policies that have created this mess in the first place, as well as our hypocritical bullshit policy of supposedly taking down an "evil-doer" while we do nothing but close our eyes or pat handfuls of "evil-doers" elsewhere in the world because it seemingly suits are current business interests in some way, shape or form.
| quote: | | you and Sheehan have shown time and time again that there is no coherency between your hatred of Bush and your want for a better Iraq. |
Fuck Sheehan. I hold nothing to her, nor do I follow what she says or does in any way. Address me from now on, please. Don't be a chickenshit and try to paint me in with someone else that I hold no loyalty to in any way. She and her idiot minions could fall off a fucking cliff for all I care. Her five minutes were up a month ago.
| quote: | | if anything the hatred of one defaces the efforts of the other. i'm not asking you or anybody to lick Bush's nuts (tell me when i have ever done that here or in this forum) just remember that when i talk about the sacrifices been made, i mean the sacrifices of all on the right side of this conflict military and civilian. it's been my position this entire time i've written here. it hasn't wavered. you call it "kowtowing to my CIC". i call it respectful to the process. |
I have not once claimed you have waivered from your position.
I've just said you're just flat out fucking wrong to have such a position without realizing the gratitude of the government and insurgent situation in Iraq when our men and women are caught in the middle.
| quote: | | deflate your ego for a moment and think what good is naysaying to what is happening over there. consider what was-then consider all who have died, and who will die, creating what will be. |
I consider it everyfucking day. How about you? Where do you think my passion on this subject resides? Can you not tell by now?
I no longer care who I offend on this topic. The problem here lies in the fact that we are in a fucked up mess there that was created by this Administration from day fucking 1. You're in the military, right Q? Tell me then - was it responsible of this Administration to go to war so fucking unbelievably ill-prepared with about 1/2 of the troops advised to secure the country in a post-invasion situation? When folks like Gen. Shinseki says that we are insufficient in the #s, and he gets blown off by your fucking neocon leaders because they believe in a smaller, more technologically "savy" military, who do you think is probably more correct now?
Was it responsible of this Administration not to sufficiently armor and protect the troops and their vehicles? Was it responsible of this Administration to up to this day STILL not fully protect their troops?
Was it responsible for our military to beat and abuse prisoners at Abu Graib and elsewhere? Was it responsible for those orders to be there in the first place? Here's some more of the latest of confessions from the Army's 82nd Airborne division:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/24/p...agewanted=print
Was it fucking responsible to stear away from the f$cker that attacked us and invade a country with a hapless dictator?
What's it take for you folks to wake up and smell what you are shoveling? It finally took the WaPost editorial board a little wake-up call after kissing Bush's ass on the Iraqi mess and Constitution to realize that things aren't quite that rosy after all:
| quote: | As Iraq moves toward a referendum on its new constitution just three weeks from now, many of its senior politicians readily concede that the charter is seriously flawed, and that its approval may worsen rather than alleviate the relentless violence. Leaders of neighboring Arab states and some Bush administration officials seem to share this view. Yet none of these officials or leaders has been willing or able to stop the political process from going forward.
. . . Faced with sinking domestic support, the Bush administration seems driven by an unwise zeal to produce visible results in Iraq -- such as a ratified constitution -- however problematic they may be. . . . Yet, judging from what even supportive Iraqis are saying, the risk is very great that the constitutional process will either tip Iraq decisively toward civil war or produce a state far from the goal of a tolerant democracy for which nearly 2,000 Americans have given their lives.
...The real problem is the absence of an agreement about Iraq's future between the majority Shiite and Kurd communities and the minority Sunnis, who ruled the country from the time of its establishment until the fall of Saddam Hussein. That disconnect is expressed in the overwhelming rejection by Sunni leaders of the constitutional draft.
. . . Though the details of implementation were postponed, the current draft would allow the Shiites, who already control the national government, to create their own ministate in southern Iraq, which very likely would be ruled by clerics and Islamic law and would closely ally itself with neighboring Iran. It would have its own armed forces and control Iraq's biggest oil fields. The Kurds would have their own ministate in northern Iraq and would probably take over the city of Kirkuk and its oil production. This radical form of "federalism" not only would be ruinous to the Sunni community, as well as the mixed population of Baghdad: It would be threatening and even destabilizing for all of Iraq's neighbors except Iran. It would produce an Iraq that the United States would have no interest in defending.
The only way for Iraq to avoid catastrophe is a political accord among Shiites, Kurds and Sunnis, one that can be based only on the preservation of Iraq as a federal but unified state in which resources and political power are fairly shared and human rights protected. The Bush administration, and Iraqi leaders themselves, ought to be focused on striking that national compromise rather than on prematurely enshrining pieces of paper or adhering to deadlines that were set arbitrarily 18 months ago.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...2401142_pf.html |
This is what BUSH is creating, not the men and women who are dying over there. They are merely following orders, so cease from your fucking attempts to paint my argument as if I'm somehow blaming them in any way. This fucking mess is on Bush's hands, it's on his fucking Adminstration as well as his followers, including yourself. You want to be proud of such a situation, well I certainly can't stop you.
But it's fucking disgusting, and that's painfully evident.
| quote: | gee i don't know? they have a truly enfranchised electorate that has proven itself twice. i mean i'm not a prophet or nuthin but the dozens of Iraqi polls are nothing but optimistic about a legitamate represenative government come 06'. does it resemble anything we know about a Democracy? yes, it resembles. we don't resemble Shiri'a law.
like i said, we're not talking about Noweigians here are we? at least the decent is there to oppose it and it will be represented. |
We don't have to be talking about white caucasians - nor do we have to lower our standards to such levels in order to dismiss basic rights given to women and dissenters to Shiite law. It's "proven" itself twice only because the majority of voters have been, oh god what a fucking surprise - SHIITES! How 'bout that? What a shocker, ain't it? And even more shocking, the group that was once in control - the minority Sunnis, have boycotted the last election fiasco because, well, who the fuck would blame them? They wouldn't get shit for rights and policies within the Shiite/Kurd run government in the first place.
So that's what you call a "democracy"? Read the WaPost again and realize just how much things have changed. I too believed that we should be staying to supposedly "finish what we started" for a time - or to be more blunt, rebuild what we fucking destroyed. But the question you must ask yourself now is - what is it we are finishing? What is it we are now fighting for? We are no longer fighting for the freedom of the people, no longer fighting for WMD disarmament, no longer fighting for Al Qaeda ties. We are now fighting for an Islamic fundamentalist government on the brink of a civil war, and our men and women are smack fucking dab in the middle of the mess.
This is NOT what we should be funding our foreign affairs over. This is NOT what our brave women and men should be giving our lives for. This is NOT what the total American "sacrifice" should be defined as anymore. This has NOTHING to do with our original intent in supposedly fighting the war on terror, nor does it have anything to do with supposedly protecting our country.
Again I ask, you do remember bin Laden, right? You better fucking remember him, because we haven't done shit about him since. And another wonderful attribute to our fucking debacle in Iraq - we've successfully made it a fucking haven for terrorists:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2005Jan13.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/06/22/news/intel.php
http://news.yahoo.com/s/krwashburea..._terror_iraq_wa
The sooner you come to grips with the fact that this isn't the lovely optimistic rosy picture that you're trying to depict, the quicker you'll come back down to the reality-based community. And I might even welcome you when you arrive.....
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Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...
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I'd love to see you try something like that.
