edit: double post. sorry.

Last edited by Derivative on Oct-25-2005 at 22:52

im sorry if this sounds harsh but this just needs to be said:

making music isnt about having the most blinging expensive hardware. its about making the most out of what you have got.

you should never think that a 2 grand synth will make you a better producer than a freebie softsynth. it doesnt work like that.

to the threadstarter. you cant have done much research if you think viruses dont have keys because they do. virus b comes in a desktop/rackmountable module, a 6 octave semi weighted action keyboard version and a portable 3 octave synth action keyboard version. the latter doesnt have aftertouch whilst the 6 octave virus kB does.

secondly. you are new to producing and yet you think its a good idea to blow 2 grand on an instrument without trying it out first? you may hate production. do you not think it would be wiser to download some free softsynths from kvr-vst.com and see what programming a synth is like first? then once you have learnt the ropes on a synth like rgc audio's excellent triangle 2, and once you feel you are serious about producing, go for something a bit pricier?

thirdly. everyone stop recommending an access virus for a first synth. if this was your first synth you would be confused as hell because of the myriad modulation options required to even get something vaguely good sounding out of it. it is versatile and flexible and it is a wonderful sounding synth, yes. but with all of that that comes complexity and you do not want to saddle yourself with a learning curve like that of the virus on top of the already steep learning curve associated with your sequencer and whatever software/hardware you are learning to use.

i would only recommend purchasing a virus once you are at least familiar with subtractive synthesis. enough that you can build basic bass and string pad sounds on a simple, fixed routing software synth like refx vanguard. in a similar way, i would never recommend anybody buy native instruments reaktor unless they are at least familar with signal paths and modular synthesis. otherwise it would just be too much to take in at one go.

my advice: *NEVER* buy any instrument or peice of studio gear without trying it out first. this is really important. because you wont be able to get a good sound out of it unless you enjoy working with it. some people hate working on a virus because you spend alot of time flicking through this tiny LCD sub menu using cheap buttons to program a sound. some people like analogue poly's like the juno 60 because there are no sub menus. there are only sliders. it feels like you are playing a juno 60 more than a virus. they also sound completely different.

about the nord lead 3. it is based on a different engine to the nord lead 2 and the original nord lead. some people like what clavier did. others dont. but many people still regard the nord lead 3 as having a sound that is less 'analogue' than the nord lead 2. most psy producers still use the nord lead 2 because they prefer its characteristic sound over the performance enhancements on is successor.

and you also have to like the sound of the synth. a virus is characteristically dark. it is difficult to get bright sounds out of it, even with wavetables and EQ. but you need to learn all this too. would you buy a car without taking one for a test drive first? just because someone told you it was good? go and see for yourself.

but it took me a year of producing every day before i felt brave enough to buy a virus b desktop. a year on, and i still havent scratched the surface despite the fact im starting to program patches from scratch now. i still feel that i need to take several months out to just sound design. please take all of this into account before you spend loads of money on synths. thats all i have to say on the subject.

Last edited by Derivative on Oct-25-2005 at 23:01

Personally I think the general fear with which people approach hardware these days is a bit un-called for. 5 years ago if you wanted to produce, you had to shell out the dosh for the goods and that made you really get the most of your purchase rather than just idly browsing through the presets on a dozen soft synths. Nothing wrong with investing in one good hardware synth and learning how to progrm it well in my opinion.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by Derivative im sorry if this sounds harsh but this just needs to be said: making music isnt about having the most blinging expensive hardware. its about making the most out of what you have got. you should never think that a 2 grand synth will make you a better producer than a freebie softsynth. it doesnt work like that. to the threadstarter. you cant have done much research if you think viruses dont have keys because they do. virus b comes in a desktop/rackmountable module, a 6 octave semi weighted action keyboard version and a portable 3 octave synth action keyboard version. the latter doesnt have aftertouch whilst the 6 octave virus kB does. secondly. you are new to producing and yet you think its a good idea to blow 2 grand on an instrument without trying it out first? you may hate production. do you not think it would be wiser to download some free softsynths from kvr-vst.com and see what programming a synth is like first? then once you have learnt the ropes on a synth like rgc audio's excellent triangle 2, and once you feel you are serious about producing, go for something a bit pricier? thirdly. everyone stop recommending an access virus for a first synth. if this was your first synth you would be confused as hell because of the myriad modulation options required to even get something vaguely good sounding out of it. it is versatile and flexible and it is a wonderful sounding synth, yes. but with all of that that comes complexity and you do not want to saddle yourself with a learning curve like that of the virus on top of the already steep learning curve associated with your sequencer and whatever software/hardware you are learning to use. i would only recommend purchasing a virus once you are at least familiar with subtractive synthesis. enough that you can build basic bass and string pad sounds on a simple, fixed routing software synth like refx vanguard. in a similar way, i would never recommend anybody buy native instruments reaktor unless they are at least familar with signal paths and modular synthesis. otherwise it would just be too much to take in at one go. my advice: *NEVER* buy any instrument or peice of studio gear without trying it out first. this is really important. because you wont be able to get a good sound out of it unless you enjoy working with it. some people hate working on a virus because you spend alot of time flicking through this tiny LCD sub menu using cheap buttons to program a sound. some people like analogue poly's like the juno 60 because there are no sub menus. there are only sliders. it feels like you are playing a juno 60 more than a virus. they also sound completely different. about the nord lead 3. it is based on a different engine to the nord lead 2 and the original nord lead. some people like what clavier did. others dont. but many people still regard the nord lead 3 as having a sound that is less 'analogue' than the nord lead 2. most psy producers still use the nord lead 2 because they prefer its characteristic sound over the performance enhancements on is successor. and you also have to like the sound of the synth. a virus is characteristically dark. it is difficult to get bright sounds out of it, even with wavetables and EQ. but you need to learn all this too. would you buy a car without taking one for a test drive first? just because someone told you it was good? go and see for yourself. but it took me a year of producing every day before i felt brave enough to buy a virus b desktop. a year on, and i still havent scratched the surface despite the fact im starting to program patches from scratch now. i still feel that i need to take several months out to just sound design. please take all of this into account before you spend loads of money on synths. thats all i have to say on the subject.

I didn't read it all...too long for my poor english dude...but I believe I know what you said there and your defently right...
ie I know a person that created music with a $1 headphones and shity pc and it came out Great! and I know another one with about $10,000-$15,000 of equip' but he can't do shit with it...
I manage an Israeli forum currently and I tell all the ppz that are there that it's not the music that makes the producer it's the producer that makes the music...or in other words don't think that if you buy a Virus TI for exemple that you'll be a great producer or something...

k first of all i dont want a software synth... second i want a synth that i can grow into, not something that i will outgrow in a year of use, i dont want to buy a new synth in a year, i want my first to last me a long time... and i feel that if i buy a cheaper one ill get tired of it and on top of that i wont have the options that higher quality synths have... also the reason i started this thread was for people to recomend some synths that they feel would do the job for my kind of music... which is Trance (melodic, deep, dark)... thanks for the comments guys...

It all comes down to how much experience you have,whether its playing, producing , audio-circuit knowledge.

If you think you have sufficient knowledge in terms of writing you own patch from scratch, any synth that was being recommended to you would be good, but if you do not have proper knowledge in terms of programming, audio-circuitary, synthesis n stuff, it's gonna be a loooonnnggg journey.

It also comes down to what kinda synth you want, whether its a VA/Analog/FM/Ditigal/Hybrid/Vintage synths, which is your preference ? Most of the synths is better off being an addition rather than a first synth in my opinion. Would you even prefer some stand alone all in one synth which has high multi-timbral for everything? Or even groove-boxes ? ( RS7000 )

The detail provided by you is inssuficient to give you a proper advice on what could be your first synth, so be more specific.

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yeah.

quote:

k first of all i dont want a software synth... second i want a synth that i can grow into, not something that i will outgrow in a year of use, i dont want to buy a new synth in a year, i want my first to last me a long time... and i feel that if i buy a cheaper one ill get tired of it and on top of that i wont have the options that higher quality synths have... also the reason i started this thread was for people to recomend some synths that they feel would do the job for my kind of music... which is Trance (melodic, deep, dark)... thanks for the comments guys...

you are proving my point with this response.

what makes you think hardware is 'better' than software?! what makes you think that you will outgrow a softsynth like triangle 2? i assure you, i have been producing for 2 years and i still havent touched half of what triangle 2 is capable of. even less of impOSCar which in my experience sounds more analogue than most so called 'virtual analogue' hardware. whether you dispute this or not, its easily one of the most analogue sounding digital synths available and credit to the guys at g force - it only costs 80 quid. as for my virus b - jesus, theres still about 60 oscillator waveforms i havent even touched yet. not to mention that i still have not set a modulation destination to an oscillator waveform yet.

also you can get tired of any synth regardless of whether it cost 3 grand or 5 bucks. hardware or software. in fact, you are more likely to get tired of a synth which you find is difficult or awkward to program. in addition to this, if you get tired of producing and designing sounds on any instrument in the long run it really looks like you need to rethink why it is you choose to even bother with this endevour in the first place. you do it because you want to or you dont.

if you think you will be 'limited' by softsynths why dont you pick up a freeware softy and try it out before you make this assumption? i recommend triangle 2 because it sounds very analogue and is feature packed. one of the best freebies around no doubt. if after you have tried it, you still think you are above this kind of instrument, try out impOSCar - it sounds amazing. it has a modelled analogue filter which my virus b cannot emulate accurately. its cheap and its tough work to program if you are a sucker for punishment. as mentioned before, many artists from gabriel and dresden to photek make wonders out of software. the production on gabriel and dresden's more recent tracks in my opinion blows most other trance studio setups out of the water. in the end its what you do with the tools you have that will limit you. in my experience, i have never been limited by own tools. the limiting factor has always been my imagination and my motivation. same with everybody i believe. nobody on this forum can honestly say they have done pretty much everything that can possibly be done on even their cheapest mono synth.

finally. you will find that when you get around to making sounds on a synthesizer that you can make trance sounds on pretty much any synth be it digital or analogue or analogue modelled or sample based. there will be very subtle differences in the tone and sound and response of a particular machine but most of the time, if you put the work in, you can get very close to the same place on any of these machines. in the end it comes down to which one feels 'right' for you when you play it.

its the same deal with 'whats the best sequencer?'

there is no best. only what you know and understand. only whats in your grasp and what you are used to.

if you still are dead set on a virus then go check one out on ebay. theres plenty of people selling up their viruses for various reasons and prices on used ones are fairly competitive. i got my virus b desktop for £390 on ebay.co.uk

the virus kB offers the best value for money in my opinion because you can get the virus sound for a about £450 if you play the auctions right. the virus c and ti are essentially the same engine but with additional features that warrent a hardware revision. in either case, i consider both to be a little too expensive considering the decent price you can get on a used b model. although if you can afford a C or Ti then go for it because they are essentially virus b synths with extra knobs and whistles on.

have fun producing and good luck whatever you end up doing. just dont say nobody warned you when you get it and wonder what the fuck you need to do to make a supersaw on it. and remember that synthesizers are musical instruments. they arent like mixers where spending more will, broadly get you a better more reliable beast.

---------------------------------

at 3rd signal: do you mean isratrance? i signed up there but never got around to posting. they really seem to like their creamware cards and building kick drums from scratch over there...

Last edited by Derivative on Oct-26-2005 at 17:58

Hey. The simple fact is that no matter what you use, with the right type of software or hardware, you can make it sound amazing. I have a little Casio SK-1 that can sound pretty beefy through a formant filter, some EQing and some compression. Dont think of a synths output as the final straw for the sound. That extremely limiting to your abilities. Think of a synths output, as a wav file that you can later edit. Seriously, try it sometime. Use a softsynth, make some simple song and then export each track as a seperate wave. Load it into something like Sonar or Audition then and have at it with all the different kind of FX that are only available to samples. You can gate, strip, bitcrush, rearrange and all different kind of stuff if you think of it that way. Just dont limit yourself so much .

Below is a demo I made prooving my point that even ultra cheap hardware can sound good if processed correctly. First is the dry, straight out of the SK-1, then the processed version comes in.
SK-1 Trance

Cheers,
Zac

___________________
DarkSword - Turn On
DarkSword - Hell Bound
DarkSword - Fresh
DarkSword - Styled
DarkSword - Shadowed Sun
DarkSword - Turning Forward
DarkSword - ALLFRUIT
Pacific Mint vs DarkSword - Climax Zone 2005
SoundClick Page

---FL Studio 9 User---

the cool thing about software is that you can build synths that you could never get into hardware. even if you could, it would most likely cost a fortune. sure the oscillators will alias and the filter wont sound like a minimoog one. but the benefits can so badly make up for what it has to sacrifice if you use em right.

take the famous yahama CS-80. widely proclaimed as the greatesd analog poly of all time. 8 voices with 2 oscillators per voice. hand built and handwired with all discrete components. no chips. sounds great i guess although ive never heard one - im going on the bladerunner soundtrack. but it weighs 220 pounds and is half the size of my bed. and i have a pretty big bed. + moving it makes it go out of tune.

these days you get softies with 6 oscillators per voice with 32 voice polyphony. dual filter ones that have mod matrixes with stupid amounts of modulation options, built in multi effects boxes that are better than the god damn zoom fx pedals i thought were the shit back when i first picked up a guitar 8 years ago.

imagine building an analogue polysynth to the specifications of zeta+ - it would weigh a tonne, take 3 years to build and wouldnt be able to fit through a doorframe. thus you would need a helicopter to airlift it into your house.

thanks for the comment derivative... i understand what youre saying, and i appreciate that... as a dj i find i like to have my hands on things, and id just rather work with hardware than software, i dont know why... i just do... its a similar debate to whether dj should be spinning vinyl or cd, or mixing from laptops... i just love spinning with vinyls, i couldnt see myself doing laptop mixing with ableton... its just not my thing... and ya i realise its hard to learn to work a synth and produce music but im willing to learn and i dont see myself giving up on it... and ur making it sound like its extremely hard... but im sure ill do fine, im in univesity now doing my 3rd year math major, im sure i can figure out a silly synth... but ya thanks for the advice... i have a few more questions though... right now the Virus classic looks like the best deal for me... can you hook up my mixer to the virus input and run the music though its filters and effects... or is that not possible... also if i buy a midi keyboard later, does it matter which one i get for it or are only a few that work with it... thanks...

What... like the 1475lbs Yamaha GX1? :P Its the father to the CS-80. They decided that the $80,000 price tag was steap for most muscians in the 70s so they came out with the $6,000 CS-80. Just some synth history .

Link

Cheers,
Zac

___________________
DarkSword - Turn On
DarkSword - Hell Bound
DarkSword - Fresh
DarkSword - Styled
DarkSword - Shadowed Sun
DarkSword - Turning Forward
DarkSword - ALLFRUIT
Pacific Mint vs DarkSword - Climax Zone 2005
SoundClick Page

---FL Studio 9 User---