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Originally posted by HardTranceProd ^^ No society in the world will ever give you a 100% "freedom of expression." Stop kidding yourself. You can express yourself so long as you don't offend others. It just so happens that Americans aren't offended by public religion, they welcome it. They're much more offended by a nude nipple. Well, the French welcome the nude nipple, but they're very offended by public religion.

In Sweden for example, it is not illegal to be naked in public, neither is it illegal to wear a hijab.

100% freedom of expression can be reached. The only reason why it's seen bad in America to be nude is because ppl think so, there is really no logical reason behind it. If ppl changed their minds it could be reached. Same if ppl could change their minds about hijabs in France.

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Originally posted by St_Andrew In Sweden for example, it is not illegal to be naked in public, neither is it illegal to wear a hijab. 100% freedom of expression can be reached.

Not really. In Sweden, people with fascist or nazi symbols will be arrested immediately and dealt with. The Swedish society agrees that even simply showing these kind of symbols in public is extremely offensive and disturbs public order.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd It's the separation of Government from religion. Schools are government institutions. The government funds, controls, and oversees them. What don't you understand about this statement?

That's very poor logic. What do you not understand about the seperation of Church and State?

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Separation of church and state From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. The separation of church and state is a concept and philosophy in modern thought and practice, whereby the structures of state or national government are proposed as needing to be separate from those of religious institutions. The concept has long been a topic of political debate throughout history. The term "church" in Western civilization is usually associated with the Christian Church. However, the phrase as a whole refers to religion and religious institutions in general and its/their relationship to government. In countries where other religions are dominant, the words mosque, temple, or synagogue are often substituted... ...The separation of church and state is related to freedom of religion, but the two concepts are different and one should not infer hastily that countries with a state church do not necessarily have freedom of religion, nor should one infer that a country without a state church necessarily enjoys freedom of religion.

So what do hijabs have to do with the seperation of Church and State again? That's right, absolutely nothing!

I understand your argument about respecting other people culture etc. Fine, but what about converts who's ancestors aren't even from any other country (and there are plenty of them, even if they are a minority relatively speaking, for eg. my ex roomate grew up in Arlignton, a full blood Texan from Scottish, British and (I think) Irish descent, but he's Muslim)? So that argument doesn't necessarily work eigther. And respect has to be mutual, it's not a one way street. Since when did respect = intolerance?

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd Not really. In Sweden, people with fascist or nazi symbols will be arrested immediately and dealt with. The Swedish society agrees that even simply showing these kind of symbols in public is extremely offensive and disturbs public order.

I never said Sweden was the perfect example, I just said that it's not impossible, and it should be strived for.

Although I'm pretty sure you are allowed to wear Nazi symbols in public in Sweden? You are however not allowed to for example scream out nazi propaganda in public that can be offensive to a certain group of ppl, eg "All black ppl should be killed".

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z I understand your argument about respecting other people culture etc. Fine, but what about converts who's ancestors aren't even from any other country (and there are plenty of them, even if they are a minority relatively speaking, for eg. my ex roomate grew up in Arlignton, a full blood Texan from Scottish, British and (I think) Irish descent, but he's Muslim)? So that argument doesn't necessarily work eigther. And respect has to be mutual, it's not a one way street. Since when did respect = intolerance?

You can cherish your personal culture all you want, as long as you observe the country's general culture and laws.

For example Italian Americans have their Italian dinners, Irish people have their St. Patricks day, etc.

But if a boy and a girl from Armenia who are both 16 want to get married, just like they would in their native country, no one will allow that here.

Get my drift?

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd Get my drift?

No.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

This issue is easy to deal with.

Last year Scott came to class wearing a winter hat I didn't like. It had bright colours that I found disconcerting. So I turned to our peer group and said in a loud voice that would carry

"Let's ostracize Scott till he starts wearing a normal hat like everyone else"

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd You can cherish your personal culture all you want, as long as you observe the country's general culture and laws. For example Italian Americans have their Italian dinners, Irish people have their St. Patricks day, etc. But if a boy and a girl from Armenia who are both 16 want to get married, just like they would in their native country, no one will allow that here. Get my drift?

Again, you're comparing apples to oranges...

Here's a piece of information for shaolin_z :

While the wearing of the hijab has lowered/been forbidden in schools you can rest assured that there's many young females wearing it outside school.
I see a lot of them daily and not long ago I saw a little girl who had to be at the most 5 wearing one ( that covered up everything expect a little bit of her mouth and eyes ..... ).

Ironically there seems to be more wearing it in certain parts of France then back in Algeria/Morocco etc.

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Originally posted by jdat Here's a piece of information for shaolin_z : While the wearing of the hijab has lowered/been forbidden in schools you can rest assured that there's many young females wearing it outside school. I see a lot of them daily and not long ago I saw a little girl who had to be at the most 5 wearing one ( that covered up everything expect a little bit of her mouth and eyes ..... ). Ironically there seems to be more wearing it in certain parts of France then back in Algeria/Morocco etc.

That's nice, but I personally don't care very much if they're wearing it or not. My problem is with their RIGHT to excersice their RELIGIOUS FREEDOMS being TRAMPLED ON which the ignorant French population (75 % according to the article) SUPPORT! I'm wondering weather they're aware of the fact that wearing a hijab is considered MANDTORY by most Muslim women according the the religious text (Quran), and it not a fuckin fasion statement or a "religious symbol." I actually had some respect for the french as they strongly opposed the Iraq Invasion and our dickhead President's foreighn policy. Now I've kind of lost it since it's so obvious how intolerant they are, and how they impose secularism on religious people. That's just as bad as imposing religion on secular people.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

For those of you in the States, here's your basis of argument regarding religion in schools taken by the Engel v. Vitale decision of the U.S. Supreme Court, which declared unconstitutional the inclusion of state-sponsored school prayer as a part of instruction in public schools.

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Students in U.S. public schools are free to: - Take Bibles or other religious texts with them on the school bus. - Pray alone or in groups at the flagpole or elsewhere on school grounds. - Pray in classrooms outside of regular teaching hours. - Say grace and/or pray in a school cafeteria. - Form a Bible study club or any other religious club, if even one student-led group is already allowed in the school. This is a guaranteed right under the federal Equal Access Act of 1984. - Students can wear T-shirts with religious text. They can wear religious jewelry (buttons, symbols, crosses, stars of David, pentacles, etc). - Students can hand out religious materials.

>>Source<<

Personally I don't see a big problem with the hijab either as long as it's not used as a crutch or arguement against the law of the land.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z I'm wondering weather they're aware of the fact that wearing a hijab is considered MANDTORY by most Muslim women according the the religious text (Quran), and it not a fuckin fasion statement or a "religious symbol."

How is it that 'most' muslim women consider hijabs manditory?
Either it is or it isn't...which is it?

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z That's nice, but I personally don't care very much if they're wearing it or not. My problem is with their RIGHT to excersice their RELIGIOUS FREEDOMS being TRAMPLED ON which the ignorant French population (75 % according to the article) SUPPORT! I'm wondering weather they're aware of the fact that wearing a hijab is considered MANDTORY by most Muslim women according the the religious text (Quran), and it not a fuckin fasion statement or a "religious symbol." I actually had some respect for the french as they strongly opposed the Iraq Invasion and our dickhead President's foreighn policy. Now I've kind of lost it since it's so obvious how intolerant they are, and how they impose secularism on religious people. That's just as bad as imposing religion on secular people.

I'm not debating the value that wearing the hijab represents; but when I see such anger being directed at me when I was purely stating facts I can't help but feel non impressed at the fact that a very large number of these younger females wearing the hijab do it because of family pressure especially from the father and brothers who'd kick their asses if they did otherwise.
Yeah that's freedom to choose and to belief. Sure. Just go on and blame the french.


ps: I'm not defending the way France is acting in this matter but I just think moderation is the key and I feel it is not the case on either side.