quote:

Originally posted by Lepanto arse is a British slang you nitwit.

bzzzzz! im sorry, but thats the incorrect answer! thank you for playing. arse is the original spelling of the word in standard british english. check wiki if you dont believe me.

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Originally posted by Lepanto furthemore, ofcourse it matters if people don't follow or enforce the law, it means it's pointless. no one cares enough to actually go and change it cuz it would require them putting in effort over something utter retarded.

except of course that im talking about the historical culture of america's prude-ism. and how that might still be relevant to today.

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Originally posted by Lepanto yes people are crying in horror. 10 year old kids watching porn is perfectly normal. damn those morals! no one gave two shits that it was violent? are you braindead?!

well, the game was already restricted to 17yos einstein. so if 10yos were playing it thats a parenting issue. anwyayz, the point remains. its ok for games to depict high-level violence but as soon as sex is included theres an uproar and the rating is changed/content removed.

i really dont see how and why you can argue that the US isnt a state full of sexually repressed christian dogmatists. obviously there are exceptions, but come on. 10 years from now ask your average american whats the first thign that comes to mind when you say \"clinton\". now, assuming they know who youre talking about, i guarantee you \"lewinsky\" will be the answer.

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Originally posted by Lepanto congrats you have cable...

i just thought id let you know coz chances are you know fuck all about anything beyond your borders

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i'm not even going to bother, numbskull

bzzzz wrong, arse is a british slang check www.dictionary.com A REAL WEBSITE.

like i said, it is apperant you know more than Americans. And ofcourse europeans know all about Clinton's policies and legacy and don't always say "ur president fucked his secratary" i guess it was just me and the 8 countries i was in over the summer

___________________
My SpaceMySpaceMUSIC
Anti-Purple Alliance.

All of you guys rooting for this dude, do you not make a distinction between normal religious people and fundamentalists/extremists at all?

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

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Originally posted by Lepanto i'm not even going to bother, numbskull bzzzz wrong, arse is a british slang check www.dictionary.com A REAL WEBSITE. like i said, it is apperant you know more than Americans. And ofcourse europeans know all about Clinto's policies and legacy and don't always say "ur president fucked his secratary" i guess it was just me and the 8 countries i was in over the summer

ok, we'll agree to disagree then btw, its was only 6 countries you visited in the summer, alaska & hawaii are actually part of the US

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Originally posted by shaolin_z All of you guys rooting for this dude, do you not make a distinction between normal religious people and fundamentalists/extremists at all?

yes and no. one of the problem ive always had with religion is that it revolves around people telling other people what to do; specifically about things that should be up to the individual to make up their own mind on.

i guess the \"normal\" religious people might well be lovely. but we dont experience the normals on a day to day basis. i dont have a problem with people believing in god at all, its when they start to push their beliefs into the public sphere that really gets my goat.

religion really is the opiate of the masses imo. and when you get your religious leaders sticking their nose into things outside the spiritual (gays/abortion/sexuality/crime & punishment/socio-economics) etc, i mean FUCK THE HELL OFF.

its an irrational thought process/belief system that essentially cannot be challenged or faulted coz at the core of it all we have \"faith\". faith, the panacea for stupid people.

having said that, the religos that stand out might not be the \"normal\" ones youre describing, but often i find it hard to tell the difference.

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Last edited by pkcRAISTLIN on Dec-08-2005 at 06:38

Hey, you quoted me there not Lepanto. Might wanna fix that.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN yes and no. one of the problem ive always had with religion is that it revolves around people telling other people what to do; specifically about things that should be up to the individual to make up their own mind on.

That's not a quality inherent to religion, it's only certain people (and I admit there are many of them), who are like that. This trend seems to usually be much more common amongst Christians (catholic or protestant, usually more of the latter in my experience) and not people of other faith (no offence to any Christians here).

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i guess the \"normal\" religious people might well be lovely. but we dont experience the normals on a day to day basis. i dont have a problem with people believing in god at all, its when they start to push their beliefs into the public sphere that really gets my goat.

Well, the reason why I used the term "normal" was because many athiest on this forum seem to think all people who believe in religion are fanatical fundamentalists. They might not necessarily think that about everyone but that the impression I get sometimes as they show little to no respect whatsoever on many occasions. I don't go around bashing athiest. I don't see why all of us should recieve that treatment eigther.

Although I can't entirely blame you for feeling that religious people are morons since there are so many of them are. Even I concede to that and neigther am I particularly fond of them. But to be fair, I think most people are stupid (atleast don't make much effort to become more knowledgeble/wise/think more critically), weather they have a religion or not.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN religion really is the opiate of the masses imo. and when you get your religious leaders sticking their nose into things outside the spiritual (gays/abortion/sexuality/crime & punishment/socio-economics) etc, i mean FUCK THE HELL OFF.

To and extent, I certainly agree with you as we do live under secular systems (which implies that there really isn't any place for religious influence). But I don't think you need to be religious to agree on certain things (whatever those are). Keep in mind that it's not a one way street. Certain rules/laws could be veiwed as imposing religion on others but at the same time many of them could just as easily be viewed as imposing secularism/hedonism on religious people.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN having said that, the religos that stand out might not be the \"normal\" ones youre describing, but often i find it hard to tell the difference.

You must not know too many "normal" religious people then. Everyone's not an irrational/stupid individual.

On another note, I find it rather irritating when people generalize X about religion when they're only familiar (many times vaguely familiar) with just one (i.e. various denomintations of Christianity). So it's very inaccurate when they conveniently use the term "religion" as that encompases all religious belief system as they really don't have a clue about most of them. So to me it demonstrates nothing but ignorance on their part. The only person who would have any credibility when making a statement like that (i.e. denoucning all religions as whatever) would be someone who's actually studies (and understood) all of them. And I seriously doubt many people like that exist.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Last edited by shaolin_Z on Dec-08-2005 at 06:48

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Hey, you quoted me there not Lepanto. Might wanna fix that.

oops. done

i agree with pretty much everything youve said. and im definitely guilty of religo-bashing, hehe. mostly tho i bash religos for spouting stupid crap rather than being religious. like i said, i have no problem with worship, just celebrate it without trying to save the world or me

chances are there are plenty of level-headed, rational religious worshippers that i never notice coz theyre observing their faith in exactly the way that i reckon they should.

love thy neighbour as thy self is a wonderful way to approach life imo.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z That's not a quality inherent to religion, it's only certain people (and I admit there are many of them), who are like that. This trend seems to usually be much more common amongst Christians (catholic or protestant, usually more of the latter in my experience) and not people of other faith (no offence to any Christians here).

I think that has to do with the fact that you live in a country with mostly christians. Go to some arab country and see what religion they enforce there... Also, many of my Muslims friends, while they are not force, they are much more encouraged to be religious by their parents and family than any of the say, christians I know.

My only point here is really, Muslims are equally as bad as christians.

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Well, the reason why I used the term "normal" was because many athiest on this forum seem to think all people who believe in religion are fanatical fundamentalists. They might not necessarily think that about everyone but that the impression I get sometimes as they show little to no respect whatsoever on many occasions. I don't go around bashing athiest. I don't see why all of us should recieve that treatment eigther.

Well, I think ppl mostly tend to bash religious ppl when they try to impose things on non-religious ppl, such as when they want to teach intelligent design as science.

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Although I can't entirely blame you for feeling that religious people are morons since there are so many of them are. Even I concede to that and neigther am I particularly fond of them. But to be fair, I think most people are stupid (atleast don't make much effort to become more knowledgeble/wise/think more critically), weather they have a religion or not.

Just out of curiousity, how can you possibly be religious if you think critically? I mean can't see how you can be anything else than an agnoist if you are into critical thinking.

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To and extent, I certainly agree with you as we do live under secular systems (which implies that there really isn't any place for religious influence). But I don't think you need to be religious to agree on certain things (whatever those are). Keep in mind that it's not a one way street. Certain rules/laws could be veiwed as imposing religion on others but at the same time many of them could just as easily be viewed as imposing secularism/hedonism on religious people.

Agree with you here, although I don't think imposing secularism is a problem in any country with freedom of religion/expression. Can't think of any right now anyway.

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You must not know too many "normal" religious people then. Everyone's not an irrational/stupid individual. On another note, I find it rather irritating when people generalize X about religion when they're only familiar (many times vaguely familiar) with just one (i.e. various denomintations of Christianity). So it's very inaccurate when they conveniently use the term "religion" as that encompases all religious belief system as they really don't have a clue about most of them. So to me it demonstrates nothing but ignorance on their part. The only person who would have any credibility when making a statement like that (i.e. denoucning all religions as whatever) would be someone who's actually studies (and understood) all of them. And I seriously doubt many people like that exist.

Agree.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z That's not a quality inherent to religion, it's only certain people (and I admit there are many of them), who are like that. This trend seems to usually be much more common amongst Christians (catholic or protestant, usually more of the latter in my experience) and not people of other faith (no offence to any Christians here).

Well, I think that just getting upset about this move carries the seeds of fundamentalism, and certainly is a meddling in other people's affairs. Why should you care what other people do to their own private copies of religious texts? It's not like you lose your own precious copy, is it? I mean, take something like the first printing of Energy 52's "Café del Mar" (as close as we get to an object I would call "sacred"): If in my possession, I would store it safely, and only listen to it with reverence once in a while. However, if it was someone else's record, and this person is intent on playing frisbee with it, what entitles me to condemn that decision? I may think him crazy, and if asked, state that I would have done otherwise, but I cannot criticize him for doing with his property what he feels like.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Well, the reason why I used the term "normal" was because many athiest on this forum seem to think all people who believe in religion are fanatical fundamentalists. They might not necessarily think that about everyone but that the impression I get sometimes as they show little to no respect whatsoever on many occasions. I don't go around bashing athiest. I don't see why all of us should recieve that treatment eigther.

I am no atheist, but I don't understand the reason why anyone automatically should be able to expect others to respect his behaviour and beliefs? I mean, if that was somehow a natural right of the individual, when are we allowed to drop that respect (I guess you don't respect the KKK's beliefs on racial inequality, for instance)? To me the idea of organized religion carries with it an abandonment of responsibility and lack of critical thinking - two things I treasure deeply. How can I respect the beliefs of someone whose very beliefs are contrary to mine? (I may respect the individual as a person (I do on default), but their beliefs are something else)

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Originally posted by St_Andrew I think that has to do with the fact that you live in a country with mostly christians. Go to some arab country and see what religion they enforce there...

*shakes head* I've lived in California, Washington (state, not DC), South Carolina, Illinois, Maryland, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia. You on the other hand haven't, so don't tell me about what it's like in the East. I have first-hand experience with it and am perfectly aware of how things are there and here.

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Originally posted by St_Andrew Also, many of my Muslims friends, while they are not force, they are much more encouraged to be religious by their parents and family than any of the say, christians I know.

I don't see how that qualifies as imposing your beliefs on others. All that indicated is that they're more practicing. Everyone has a right to bring up their children as they see fit. Teaching your children about what you think is the right thing has nothing to do with forcing your beliefs on others. They don't "force" them to do shit, especially once they're old enough to make their own decisions. Infact, my parent never taught me anything about Islam and everything I've learned is on my own. Plus, I don't see Muslims going around telling people that they need saving (and many of my non-Muslim friends have verified this, so it's not just my opinion). I, on the other hand, am approached atleast once or twice every semester by a bible thumper who won't leave me alone for quite a few minutes.

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Originally posted by St_Andrew My only point here is really, Muslims are equally as bad as christians.

Based on what exactly? I don't recall a Muslims version of the Spanish inquisition or exterminating the native American (just to mention a few events). I suggest you study Islamic history before making assumptions. You obviously have no idea how the Muslims treated their subjects (Muslims and non-Muslims) and how Islam spread in the first place.

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Originally posted by St_Andrew Well, I think ppl mostly tend to bash religious ppl when they try to impose things on non-religious ppl, such as when they want to teach intelligent design as science.

Yeah that anoys me too, but what did that have to do with what I said? My original question was:

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Originally posted by St_Andrew All of you guys rooting for this dude, do you not make a distinction between normal religious people and fundamentalists/extremists at all?

And your statement above answers my question ( atlest for you that is), lumping all of us together in one group. That should tell you a little something about yourself and your attitude towards people with religious beliefs.

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Originally posted by St_Andrew Just out of curiousity, how can you possibly be religious if you think critically? I mean can't see how you can be anything else than an agnoist if you are into critical thinking.

That statement has a pretty offensive implication, but since I know your intentions are good and it's just inquiry on your part, whatever.

Hmmm.. religious person = unable of critical thought? Well, I guess you can toss out the basis for modren science and mathematics right out the window since it was Muslim scholars who liad down the foundation for it, not to mention they sowed the seeds for the renaissance. Tathi, back me up here.

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Originally posted by trancaholic Well, I think that just getting upset about this move carries the seeds of fundamentalism

What? How?

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Originally posted by trancaholic and certainly is a meddling in other people's affairs.

All I did was express an opinion on it. I didn't take any sort of action whatsoever. How exactly am I "meddling in other people's affairs?"

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Originally posted by trancaholic Why should you care what other people do to their own private copies of religious texts? It's not like you lose your own precious copy, is it? I mean, take something like the first printing of Energy 52's "Café del Mar" (as close as we get to an object I would call "sacred"): If in my possession, I would store it safely, and only listen to it with reverence once in a while. However, if it was someone else's record, and this person is intent on playing frisbee with it, what entitles me to condemn that decision? I may think him crazy, and if asked, state that I would have done otherwise, but I cannot criticize him for doing with his property what he feels like.

I guess it's hard to understand for an areligious person since there really isn't anything sacred for him/her.

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Originally posted by trancaholic what entitles me to condemn that decision?

^^^^Please tell me where I said that.

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Originally posted by trancaholic I cannot criticize him for doing with his property what he feels like.

^^^^Or that.

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Originally posted by trancaholic I am no atheist, but I don't understand the reason why anyone automatically should be able to expect others to respect his behaviour and beliefs?

Please be more specific here so I know what you're talking about. If this is a reference to fundamentalists/etremests in denial of plausible scientific theroies or facts (such as advocating creationism in a science class), I totally understand.

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Originally posted by trancaholic should be able to expect others to respect his behaviour and beliefs?

Well, a persons behavior really doesn't have anything to with religion unless he/she actually practices his/her faith (sorry, if it seems like I'm being nit-picky here, just making a clarification ).

As for the second part, I thought it was universaly understood that we we're supposed to respect each other.

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Originally posted by trancaholic I mean, if that was somehow a natural right of the individual, when are we allowed to drop that respect (I guess you don't respect the KKK's beliefs on racial inequality, for instance)?

Huh?

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Originally posted by trancaholic To me the idea of organized religion carries with it an abandonment of responsibility and lack of critical thinking - two things I treasure deeply.

How so? I tresure those deeply too. Infact, those are both integral parts of Islam.

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Originally posted by trancaholic How can I respect the beliefs of someone whose very beliefs are contrary to mine? (I may respect the individual as a person (I do on default), but their beliefs are something else)

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z As for the second part, I thought it was universaly understood that we we're supposed to respect each other.

EDIT: To both of your guys, I know my tone may seem a little agressive but I can't help it if someone's generalizing and insulting my intelligence. I hope you guys don't take it personally since I think you're both pretty cool/nice guys.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Last edited by shaolin_Z on Dec-09-2005 at 02:18

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z *shakes head* I've lived in California, Washington (state, not DC), South Carolina, Illinois, Maryland, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia. You on the other hand haven't, so don't tell me about what it's like in the East. I have first-hand experience with it and am perfectly aware of how things are there and here.

So you are honestly saying that Saudia Arabia is less enforcing when it comes to religion compared to for example the US?

Now I have never even been to Saudia Arabia, but from what I have heard of it it's not pretty. For a starters you don't have religious freedoms at all (except for in privacy, but not even that is protected by law). Women aren't allowed to drive etc etc. How can a country like that be less enforceing when it comes to religion than any country with religious freedoms?!

Of oourse you could argue that not all ppl are like that, but well same argument goes for Christians, and they are not even close to as forceing as this.

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I don't see how that qualifies as imposing your beliefs on others. All that indicated is that they're more practicing. Everyone has a right to bring up their children as they see fit. Teaching your children about what you think is the right thing has nothing to do with forcing your beliefs on others. They don't "force" them to do shit, especially once they're old enough to make their own decisions. Infact, my parent never taught me anything about Islam and everything I've learned is on my own. Plus, I don't see Muslims going around telling people that they need saving (and many of my non-Muslim friends have verified this, so it's not just my opinion). I, on the other hand, am approached atleast once or twice every semester by a bible thumper who won't leave me alone for quite a few minutes.

I'm not saying everyone is like that. I'm just saying that I have seen Muslims like that as well (actually more common in this country where most "native" ppl are non-relgious). Although I don't think Muslims try to convert "natives" to Islam that often, I think it's pretty common for them to try (or force) ppl with the same orign as themselves to convert or stay in Islam. Now this is an extreame and I know you dont agree with this and that it is not in accordence with Islam, but it's still quite common with "honor killings" even in a country like Sweden when their fellow Muslims don't want to follow their faith or wants to follow the freedoms we have here in the western world, which is something I can't see any Christian do, not even in the US. Now that are extreame cases and not really that relevant, but I just wanted to prove to that many Muslims takes things to an extreame as well (no need to defend your faith, I know it's not supposed to be like that).

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Based on what exactly? I don't recall a Muslims version of the Spanish inquisition or exterminating the native American (just to mention a few events). I suggest you study Islamic history before making assumptions. You obviously have no idea how the Muslims treated their subjects (Muslims and non-Muslims) and how Islam spread in the first place.

Well obviously Islam has long been better than Christians, but the last 100 years or so, the western world has developed a much more tolerating system. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but you are denying the obvious if you think Islam never did any bad things.

Actually look at the former talliban regime or something and we have a Muslim version of the spanish inquisition, at least someting similar.

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Yeah that anoys me too, but what did that have to do with what I said? My original question was:

Well, what I wrote that too was:

"They might not necessarily think that about everyone but that the impression I get sometimes as they show little to no respect whatsoever on many occasions."

So my point was that me (amongst other) show little or no respect for thought that doesnt make any sense when they try to enforce that on others. If a religious person does make sense (which s/he can do), and/or don't try to enforce their beliefs on other ppl, I don't think you will ever see me put down on them (if not just jokeing).

Like I would never blame ppl for completly wasting their time in churches cause it's their problem

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And your statement above answers my question ( atlest for you that is), lumping all of us together in one group. That should tell you a little something about yourself and your attitude towards people with religious beliefs.

I don't lump you all together. I give every religious person as much chance to prove themselves as I give anyone else.

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That statement has a pretty offensive implication, but since I know your intentions are good and it's just inquiry on your part, whatever. Hmmm.. religious person = unable of critical thought? Well, I guess you can toss out the basis for modren science and mathematics right out the window since it was Muslim scholars who liad down the foundation for it, not to mention they sowed the seeds for the renaissance. Tathi, back me up here.

I'm not saying that religion never created anything. I was simply asking how you can be religious if you are critical thinking. My point is, if you are religious, what are you basing your belief on? Nothing else than belief really, which is not really a reliable source. So my point is, if you are a truly critical thinker, you could never believe in a god, neither would you ever say that there is no god, since non of them are possible to know for sure. So critial thinker = agnoist in my mind. That said, I'm not saying you are wrong that there is a god, I'm simply saying that there is no chance you can anywhere near prove the existence of God (which you can with science and other things).

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EDIT: To both of your guys, I know my tone may seem a little agressive but I can't help it if someone's generalizing and insulting my intelligence. I hope you guys don't take it personally since I think you're both pretty cool/nice guys.

It's all just an argumentation, no hard feelings (from either side I guess)

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Originally posted by St_Andrew I'm not saying that religion never created anything. I was simply asking how you can be religious if you are critical thinking. My point is, if you are religious, what are you basing your belief on? Nothing else than belief really, which is not really a reliable source. So my point is, if you are a truly critical thinker, you could never believe in a god, neither would you ever say that there is no god, since non of them are possible to know for sure. So critial thinker = agnoist in my mind. That said, I'm not saying you are wrong that there is a god, I'm simply saying that there is no chance you can anywhere near prove the existence of God (which you can with science and other things).

It's easy to be religious and think critically about other things. All you need is someone who is mentally ill enough to completely compartmentalize their different beliefs and practices.