i also don't really understand this statement:
'do you believe in God? According to the bible, God has a plan for us- he knows what we're going to do before we do it, five minutes from now, five years from now. Therefore, we are pre-determined to be a certain way. SO... how can we be morally responsible for our actions, if they are pre-determined for us??'

because if you are taking the christan route, jesus paid the price for our sins in the garden of gethsemane and by dying on the cross, so you could try and argue that we are destined to do everything we do in our lifetime, but at the same time, god gave mankind the gift of free agency, so BTG is free to make whatever choice he wants as long as he understands that he will eventually become accountable, i don't believe that god is allknowing, but i think BTG can make his choice based on free agency instead of pre-determinism. I don't know if that make sense, i am supposed to be sleeping, but i was watching soft-porn before i went to bed and i kept having stupid dreams about what lube is best and what not, it was getting really annoying.

quote:

Originally posted by Omega_Blue our very existence carries with it internal causes. [/b]

It's not really our choice to exist. I blame it on my parents.

quote:

Originally posted by Omega_Blue our brains motivate us based on unknown biological forces. [/b]

Let's not get too ethical here. Our brain works in conjunction with our spine in what is known as the central nervous system. Our brain sends and receives 'trillions' of electrical impulses per second that allow us to perform everyday functions. And technically the human brain is the fastest computer in the world. So I guess there is a known biological reason for this. In conclusion we must never let emotion cloud reason.

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Originally posted by Omega_Blue I'm glad this didn't get ugly. A lot of times when I have little chats about religion or philosophy, I say something that a lot of people don't agree with and they get really personal and aggravated... I'm just spouting out what i've learned so far

I hate when that happens. You can never have an educated conversation with close minded people. And by close minded I mean people who aren't open to discuss anything that isn't tied to their opinion. It has be their way or no way at all and that really sucks because the conversation goes to hell after that.

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Originally posted by occrider I'm afraid your utilitarian argument is flawed. You're making several assumptions. First, you're assuming that you know BTG's brother's utility. If a close friend/sibling stole $5 from me without telling me I would be offended even if they paid $10 back some time in the future. You know ... that whole jazz about principles/honesty/etc. Second of all, you're assuming that BTG's brother's ill will has no effect on BTG's utility. Despite the fact that BTG may feel like he is justified in paying more to compensate for his transgressions, he still might suffer negative utility as a result of the effect of his actions on his brother. As for "hard determinism" in the manner you describe it, that's such an intangible argument that it has almost no meaning. Regardless of how rich I am, it is quite likely that someone is always richer than I am. Does that "determine" that I will rob someone despite the fact that I am a billionaire? Is it "necessity" that I rob and steal until I become the richest person in the world? This philosophy can perpetuate ad nauseum in any situation.

lol i was waiting for a response from you

your utilitarian argument is a good point. i've got nothing to say there. (but you could, and I know this is far-fetched, say that you taking money from your brother to buy pot helps you and the drug dealer. which in turn helps the bigger drug dealer. which in turn helps the cartel. which in turn helps the thousands of mexicans working for the cartel. which in turn helps the families of the mexicans of the cartel. which in turn stimulates the mexican economy. which in turn aids in the growth of blah blah blah... it's speculation, of course, and it's not meant to be taken seriously, but it's a possibility nonetheless.)

as for the hard determinist argument,

first of all let me say that I am NOT a firm believer in hard determinism, like i said it just shit i've learned.

so according to determinism, you wouldn't neccessarily steal to become the richest person in the world- outside factors determined your action. It IS a possibility, though. That's the beauty of determinism- you can use any excuse you want to explain your action.

Maybe you do have an obsession to be the richest man alive. That obsession affects your action to steal. Maybe you get a kick out of robbing people blind. as long as there are causal factors that determine your action, you are not free.


let me pose a question...

Is there a difference between the man who throws himself out the window and the man who is thrown out the window?






edit- and sorry guys, my wireless network card is fucking up. DAMN

It's stealing unless you ask him, and I think it's even more wrong it's for weed.

pics or stfu.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Mikey Mike Social outcasts are often of the opinion that they must have a drink before being able to loosen up with their inhibitions, thus being able to have a good time. There's a word that sums up this sort of behaviour, and that word is 'reject.'

quote:

Originally posted by Omega_Blue let me pose a question... Is there a difference between the man who throws himself out the window and the man who is thrown out the window?

I would say no. Because they both made choices that got them to the window regardless.

he's at work, thats why ican't ask him. but i do ask when i can, if that's any better ^_-

i hope your smoking bc bud and not mexican weed.

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Originally posted by wienerschnitzel i also don't really understand this statement: 'do you believe in God? According to the bible, God has a plan for us- he knows what we're going to do before we do it, five minutes from now, five years from now. Therefore, we are pre-determined to be a certain way. SO... how can we be morally responsible for our actions, if they are pre-determined for us??' because if you are taking the christan route, jesus paid the price for our sins in the garden of gethsemane and by dying on the cross, so you could try and argue that we are destined to do everything we do in our lifetime, but at the same time, god gave mankind the gift of free agency, so BTG is free to make whatever choice he wants as long as he understands that he will eventually become accountable, i don't believe that god is allknowing, but i think BTG can make his choice based on free agency instead of pre-determinism. I don't know if that make sense, i am supposed to be sleeping, but i was watching soft-porn before i went to bed and i kept having stupid dreams about what lube is best and what not, it was getting really annoying.

wow... strange (the lube thing and all)

see, that's one of the problems I have with the bible. (I think that) God said that we have free will- we are free to make our own choices. But he also has our lives "planned." it's a contradiction.

also, when you think about it, if God really does have our lives "planned" as it states in the bible, why would he pre-determine some of us to heaven and some of us to hell?

why do you believe in God? (not at all meant to be put in an attacking tone)

quote:

Originally posted by stevieboy32808 It's not really our choice to exist. I blame it on my parents. Let's not get too ethical here. Our brain works in conjunction with our spine in what is known as the central nervous system. Our brain sends and receives 'trillions' of electrical impulses per second that allow us to perform everyday functions. And technically the human brain is the fastest computer in the world. So I guess there is a known biological reason for this. In conclusion we must never let emotion cloud reason.

I think what is meant about our existence carrying internal causes is exactly what you said- the cause being your parents having sex and popping you out. I think "internal" is used incorrectly (that was something i copied out of my notes )

I also think what is meant by "our brain motivates us based on unknown biological forces" is not meant by the literal sense of the nervous system and the actions of movement and language etc, but more or less about the basis of how we think- sure our brain tells our body what to do, but i think the "unknown biological forces" equate into conscious thought, maybe even a "soul" or something. we still don't know why and how we think... and what motivates us to act in a certain manner.

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Originally posted by jennypie I would say no. Because they both made choices that got them to the window regardless.

Excellent answer!

the only difference is that the man who is thrown out of the window is forced to do so by some force external to himself (the dude throwing him out)

the action of the man who throws himself out of the window is determined by internal forces (with remote external causes)


see guys? determinism is fun.

quote:

Originally posted by Omega_Blue wow... strange (the lube thing and all) see, that's one of the problems I have with the bible. (I think that) God said that we have free will- we are free to make our own choices. But he also has our lives "planned." it's a contradiction. also, when you think about it, if God really does have our lives "planned" as it states in the bible, why would he pre-determine some of us to heaven and some of us to hell? why do you believe in God? (not at all meant to be put in an attacking tone)

i'm not going to get into why i believe in god, i think that's a bit beyond the point. Maybe you are taking words in the bible too literally? Do you think that god really created the world in 7 days? Or do you assume that there were 24 hours in a day for god or maybe for god 1 day lasted 1 000 000 years in our time.

I'm beat. Me goes off to bed.....Gnite everybody.