Well, I didn't really want to get involved in another religious debate, but......

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Ok let's start with this one. God does no evil. The devil does all of the evil. If they dropped the ball, it's probably because they're HUMAN, not gods themselves. No one (except the trinity) is perfect. If a person misses a shot while playing basketball, do you really think they're gonna blame anyone except themselves? God CAN take total control of you whenever he feels it's necessary, but that doesn't mean he controls your every move. That's where the freedom of choice thing comes in again.

Firstly, I don't understand how any Christian could possibly say that God is incapable of evil and is entirely benevolent. Have any of you actually read the Bible? This is God's word, supposedly, and have you seen some of the travesties he has inflicted on his children? Wars, plagues, famine, genocide? I suggest to those of you who think that God is perfectly good read some of the old testiment. God has inflicted more evil, more pain on humanity than the devil could ever possibly hope to acheive.

Secondly, considering god CAN take contol of us whenever he wants, it's a shame he doesn't seem to do it more often eh? You occasionally hear of miracles, where people seem to avoid death or serious injury by pure fortune, the odds against being so large that they could only be a divinely inspired miracle. For instance, after the Sept 11 disaster, you heard of people leaving the building for 15 minutes, or staying at home, or being "unusually" late for a flight, meaning that they were not in the buildings or on the planes when the attack occurred. The majority of people I heard being interviewed on their lucky escape attributed it to either God or their own personal angel (which sounds a bit like an imaginery friend to me). But then I think, fair enough, God or this angel may have had a hand in leading them to safety, but what about all the people in the building? Were they just infidel who deserved to die? Why didn't God save the thousands in the WTC, but decide to save half a dozen other people? And it's the same case with every other "miracle" ever reported: for every prayer answered, for every miraculous escape or recovery there are a thousand, a million prayers, hopes and dreams that remain unanswered. If God really did care for his children, you'd think he'd have a slightly better success rate yeah?

Oh and thirdly, I'm not going to labour this point, but omnibenevolence and omnipotence are logically incompatible qualities of God. He cannot be both (and omnipotence in itself is an illogical idea - can God create a stone so heavy he can't lift it?).

Personally, I believe if there is a God, it is the God that holds the atoms together, the God that says light travels at 186,000 mph and the God that says white light, when difracted through a prism, shatters out into 7 different colours. He would amount to nothing more than this - and he certainly wouldn't have the time to worry about the tiny accident called humanity, that occupies a tiny, blue speck in an obscure corner of his universe.

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Ok do I really need to answer this? Let me think, hmmmm... how many times has science proved itself wrong? At one time everyone said that it was impossible for the Earth to be anything else but flat. It was just a basic knowledge of science to know that there's no way the Earth could be round, but of course science has once again proved itself wrong. So how can we be so sure that the scientists are right this time? Personally, I'd trust God before I'd trust humans.

Yes but that's part of the scientific method. Old ideas are overturned once we have the technology to discover new evidence that is incompatible with the older theories. Science factors mistakes - from either human fallibility or incomplete evidence - into its methodology, where as religion doesn't. It assumes infallibility of the Bible, and where an undoubted fallibility does occur, it is either deemed to be correct anyway (despite blatantly contradicting with what we know about reality), or explained away as a metaphor.

Oh, and seeing as the scientific method hardly even existed before Rene Descartes' epistemological turn (in the mid 1600's), you can hardly attribute the flat Earth theory to the failing of science, much rather the ineptitude of religious self-examination. Religion plays the infallibility card (as it needs to do to attract anyone seeking answers) and trips itself up.

Think of all the errant passages in the Bible: the names of places and people that almost certainly never existed; the perpetuation of a flat, round Earth theory; the grand stories that defy all laws of physics, biology and, above all, common sense (Noah's ark, Adam and Eve, Joshua and the sun); the instance that the world didn't extend beyond the middle-eastern region; the mention of creatures like the dragon and other similar cryptozoological manifestaions; the morality that contradicts itself time and time again; the God who changes from vengeful and wrathful one minute, to benevolent and peaceful the next; the contradictory accounts of the Gospels...... and I could go on and on. If god did write this book, then he either he's just having a laugh or he's not as bright as you fellas make him out to be.

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Ok, honestly, do you think that a bunch of humans, many of whom never saw or heard about each other, could all write up stories of what they believe and then have it all fit together perfectly into the book that we now know as the Bible? Isn't that scientifically impossible too? The Bible, and all of the scripture in it, is the product of God speaking to man for thousands and thousands of years. Only a supernatural force could make the Bible what it is and still have it not proved wrong to this day, even though man has been trying to disprove it ever since the books in it were still being written.

Why do you think it would be impossible for humans to concoct the Bible? How on earth could it be scientifically impossible? If the Bible had included pieces of scientific information from before its time then it may be a bit more believable: if it had spoken of a heliocentric solar system, a spherical Earth, the world beyond the Middle East, atomic theory, techtonic plate theory, medicine, bacteria, anything - any information that could have only been divinely inspired. But we get nothing of the sort. Instead we get a mismatching patchwork of ancient science and morality, which, funnily enough, seems to correlate exactly with the beliefs of the people who wrote it. If God had just spoken of genetics, the unified field theory, the properies of light both as a particle and a wave - even in passing - the Bible would be the most important book in history, and quite simply irrefutable. Instead, God seems to reveal nothing in the least bit extraordinary. Instead of revealing incredible pieces of knowledge in his book, he spouts forth some "historical" stories (that seem to correlate to a worrisome degree with the myths of Egyptian, Greek and other middle-eastern cultures); cites the morality of that time as the only absolutely correct morality; concurs with human misunderstanding by attributing disease to demonic possession rather than the affliction of bacteria and viruses; perpetuates the geocentric myth..... and so on. When you consider what isn't said in the Bible then, it's hard to conceive how it could be anything but man-made.

And what a drab, uninspired piece of theological nonsense the Bible is when you consider what it may have been! Is there to be a sequel then? If some guy came to you and said that he had been divinely inspired to write the "Bible II: Christ Returns" you'd think he was crazy, wouldn't you? Why do you believe that the people who wrote the Bible 2000 years ago were telling the truth when they said it was divinely inspired then? Is there anything in the Bible to suggest that it was anything but man made? Like I said before, I don't think so.

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Yes, but by choosing not to believe in him, you choose to go to Hell. Sure you can still be a Christian and not worship him, but I don't think he'd like it very much. God isn't biased torwards anyone believe it or not. He loves everyone just the same, and every person on this earth is given a chance to ask God for forgiveness of their sins. Those that NEVER get a chance (as in they've never even heard of God, such as a still-born baby) will go to Heaven.

So he loves each and every one of us as his children, but he'd still send us to hell if we don't praise his very essence once a week? What kind of a father is that? If he were a human father he'd have been in jail long ago.

Anyway, I'd love to go on, but I have to go out now.

So I'll continue some other time.

Bloody hell, 8 replies in the time it took me to type out that response.

I gotta learn how to type faster.

GAH you people are keeping me busy tonight

Ok ATB, your turn.

There are quite a few stories in the Bible that tell of people worshipping 'false' gods. And in most (if not all) cases, the one true God showed those people that He does indeed exist and is the only one that exists.
Why do I think that Allah is a false god? Because you never really hear of anything Allah is doing. Is he dead or something? Are all of the Muslims worshipping a dead god? Or a god that never even existed?
Truth is, the Bible has much more credibility than any other religions. If Christianity wasn't so powerful, then why is it that it's the most attacked religion?
So yes, people who have heard of God and heard how to ask Jesus for forgiveness of their sins ARE going to end up in Hell because they still choose to worship their own God.

And of course now I have to respond to Renegade.

Ok, if my memory serves me correctly, the Bible talks about things like ocean currents and the system of blood that flows through all humans and animals. And these were stated well before they were actually 'discovered' by scientists.
And next, the thing about God inflicting travesties on his own children. Tell me, when you were a child, did your parents ever punish you for doing things you shouldn't have been doing? I know they must have, and God really is a Father among many things. Whenever he casts out horrific events on anyone in the Bible, they deserved it. That's called 'justice'. Think of a court system. The criminal goes to court, and he then recieves punishment for his crimes. So what you're saying is that God shouldn't punish anyone because he loves them. If I remember correctly, I believe that my mom always says she loves me even though I seem to get punished everyday for something. So do I believe her? Of course I do.
And the thing about the Sept. 11th attack, do you really expect something like that to happen and God save every single person involved? Again, like I said before, life isn't going to be fair whether you're a Christian or not. If you die at a young age, then who are you going to blame? God? What did he have to do with it? I'm amazed at how many people don't believe in God yet they blame God for every bad thing that happens to them.
And God is NOT a genie in a lamp. He's not going to answer all of your prayers. Why not? Well because humans are selfish and lazy. If God doesn't think that giving you something that you've prayed for will do any good, then he's not going to give it to you. I'd LOVE to have the new Cadillac Cien right now, but do I really expect God to give it to me? Heh, not a chance, because that would only be serving my purposes, not His.
Ok, last response to this message. God doesn't send people to Hell for not worshipping him. Has anyone been listening to me? God will not allow people into heaven who have never confessed their sins to Jesus. I don't see the word 'worship' anywhere in that statement. All you have to do to get into Heaven is ask Jesus for forgiveness of your sins and that's it, you're done. Of course it won't change anything at all if you didn't really mean it. God can see through your lies as if they were glass.

Oh and don't expect any more responses from me tonight, because I'm going to bed finally. Damn you people keeping me up this late.

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Originally posted by torontotrance Quickly to answer your question ABT. You have to accept it, you can't just say i'm a good person and because of that i will go to heaven. It involves asking jesus christ to come into your life. Sounds difficult eh...nothing is easy. ANymore questions abt......pm me and i'd be happy to answer them.

well i am a non-practicing Catholic. my friend, who is a very devoted Christian explained the whole thing to me one night. He stated to me that it wasnt good enough for me to be just a "good person" who tried his best to be a good person, respect everyone, and never try to "hurt anyone."

He stated Jesus died for all of us, so we could live our lives and that we deserve to pray and worship God/Jesus because Jesus died for us.

Everybody sins all the time. But that's ok since God forgives us if we ask for his forgiveness. So what is really the point???? Yes i sin ALL the time, and i dont ask for forgiveness. Does that make me a bad person and does that guarantee i will not go to heaven if there is a heaven?

I myself am not sure about whether God exists or not. I dont know what GOd is supposed to be. I'm the type of person that has come to the point that if i am to believe something i need to see it first. And that's just the way i function. I do think though, that there are "higher powers" than us humans, so if that "higher power" is what people call GOD, than let it be. I just cant label it GOD.

I'm just ALWAYz confused about this topic, and always seeking to find the answers, which unfortunately i dont think i'll ever get....i would write more but due to me being superstitious in a way....and all my thoughts right now, the best thing for me to do is ***knock on wood****

Respect to all religions.

>JM<

****edit***** i just thought of this......well, lets say i sin, ask for forgiveness, then sin again <--something that just by human nature i am not able to avoid, what is the point in the longrun. I will feel like a jackass for being a sinner, disobeying GOD, and probably get depressed or something, and sin more....it's a screwed up repeating cycle!!!!!!......i dunno...whatever.....

Last edited by JM on Jan-18-2002 at 07:27

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Originally posted by PsycoEwok All you have to do to get into Heaven is ask Jesus for forgiveness of your sins and that's it, you're done.

....Jesus please forgive my sins....

THERE! ... i'm in. see you guys in heaven

Renegade, you're going to HELL! ... along with half the other TA's on this board

George, just listen to what Renegade is saying.. he'll help straighten you out. ... very smart man he is.

.. and no offense psycoewok, but your saying that everyone who knows who jesus is and doesn't believe in him is going to go to hell just totally discredited anything you could possibly say more to help your cause...

Millions and millions of jews in this country KNOW who jesus is... that means EVERY American Jew is going to hell.... AND every american muslim ... going to hell.... That mean EVERYBODY in the USofA who is NOT a practicing christian is going to hell (see: majority).

Hmmm.... aren't we already "living" in hell in your eyes anyway? .. b/c heaven is such a "great place", but no one wants to die to get there...

-ABT-

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Peace.

to Renegade
.....what you wrote had to of been the most intelligent, usefull, productive and inspiring posts i have EVER seen in response to a topic like this...your arguement is full of FACTS and i am very glad i read the entire thing twice.....i agree with you 100000%% percent...that was very well put.....seriously nice !!

anyway....its amazing how people say in the bible this and that about Noah and his Arc and Adam & Eve and the Flood and all those other great DR.Suess stories....but when one person claims to have seen or been abducted by an alien or UFO...we consider them to be crazy...i would beleive there story over the ones in the Bible anyday of the week...

to PsycoEwok
as far as you go....i think i heard you say that you have conversations with God and he responds to you...you do know they have prescription medicine for problems like that...that inturn means my conversation with you is over....

As far as asking God for forgiveness...i dont agree....i will not ask a being like God to forgive me when the person that needs to forgive me is myself.....thats it.....

Look i beleive in God and Jesus....and if there is a heaven i think i will go there....i think i have a free pass , because i saved someones life 4 years ago when they where literley on fire from head to toe and i put the fire out....so i am good to go...

If religion is so concerned with life being so precious answer me this 1 simple question.....
WHY have more people in the history of the world been killed in the name of God then for any other reason??...

must not be precious to all...or like George Carlin said "all life is precious , aslong as you pray to the same imaginary man in the sky as i do"

___________________
Bring back 1994 NYC clubbing nights, cus the sh*t today is filled with junk parties and DJs that play sh*t House.....Zabiela, Sander, or Howells and all the rest suck and couldnt throw a night like it was in the early 90s in NYC!!!...Screw Twilo - give me Limelight circa 1993!!!

A majority of the replies here are from non-religious people like myself, and - frankly - none of them comes as a surprise (least of all Renegades views). To sum up, most of you think that religious people perform rituals because it makes them feel good about themselves. Exactly what I'm thinking when Jehovas Witnesses are at my door: "Damn, you people feel so much better than me don't you?!?".

However, very interesting is the answers by PsycoEwok and tta: Judging from PsycoEwoks replies, you perform rituals because that's the only way you'd get into heaven when you eventually die - as opposed to those of us who simply tries to do good in general. Now, if that's the priorities of God I'm not sure heaven is such a fun place to be: "Attention all souls, hymn singing will take place at three precisely. Remember to wear a white robe and a tulip in your hair - or you'll be expelled."
tta: You focused on church going as spiritual guidance, which I find a very sensible reason. Actually my favourite part of going to church is the sermon - the one thing that do change from christmas to christmas. But what about private rituals such as saying grace before dinner? Do you thank God out of courtesy? Are you afraid that if you do not, you won't go to heaven? Or do you simply get a kick out of it?

Thanks for the replies, I'm a bit baffled by the lack of replies by religious people, which I'll interpret as a lack of religious people in general or that religious people don't know why they perform rituals. Which of the two options that are the greater loss to God I can't say.

Hehe ok let's see here.

To tiesto14: sure say I'm crazy, but what I've felt whenever I've talked to God was 100% real. I just can't turn away from God or anything because he HAS been talking to me whether you believe it or not. I know for certain he has though.
Oh and if you think you're going to heaven just because you saved someone's life, you're sadly mistaken. I've already mentioned 100000 times here how you get to Heaven, the ONLY way to get to Heaven.

To Trancaholic: YOU DON'T GO TO HEAVEN SIMPLY BY DOING RITUALS. People I've said this over and over. You go to Heaven by asking Jesus for forgiveness. There are no rituals involved. And yes, it's true that simply doing good isn't enough to get yourself into Heaven. And btw, Heaven is a paradise, not church 24/7.

Oh and tiesto14 again: Why have more people been killed in the name of God? If you're reffering to man killing people and then saying that God told them to, they were lying. God can kill anyone he wants to fairly quickly I'd say. I can go kill lots of people right now and say that God told me to do it, but it wouldn't be true. Besides, I think Hell is what God has in store for all of those people that are being killed.

So, if I understand correctly, this is the bottom line.

You go to heaven by asking Jesus to forgive you for your sins.

Not by leading a good life.


There are 2 men. Jimmy and Billy-Bob.
Jimmy doesn;t believe in God. He helps people that are homeless for no money. He doesn't have much, if he has something he shares it with needy people.

Billy-Bob has had sex with a dozen of 10 year old boys and girls. Years after he has remorse and asks Jesus for forgiveness...


Jimmy goes to hell, billy-bob to heaven?


I don't need your heaven.