quote:

Originally posted by Floorfiller there can be no justification of evil, no reason why a god with these attributes would create a world which contained it.

Incorrect, man cannot provide justification of evil and man lacks the capacity to understand any potential reason why a god with these attributes would creat a world which contained it.

quote:

Originally posted by Floorfiller ok i was going to try and lead a discussion of the topic based off of this information, but i really don't think i'm equipped to do so hehe... here is a link discussing in full the topic at hand http://setis.library.usyd.edu.au/st...vidence-divine/

the link repeats the same mistake you made (the one moral pointed out).

___________________
People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
Jackson, venomX, jamie, Renegade, Konjin, Akridrot, Miss Bliss.
Psy-T - Down The Rabbit Hole (400minute long acid set)

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard Incorrect, man cannot provide justification of evil and man lacks the capacity to understand any potential reason why a god with these attributes would creat a world which contained it.

it's not hard to find a positive (aswell as a negative) reason for every event that happens...

___________________
People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
Jackson, venomX, jamie, Renegade, Konjin, Akridrot, Miss Bliss.
Psy-T - Down The Rabbit Hole (400minute long acid set)

quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T fyi, you're still debating over something with contradictory premises here.

depending on how you view it, yes. you can say that the idea of God being able to do anything, even things which seem impossible means that being all powerful or all knowing is impossible but like what has been said, since we as humans dont have divine knowledge and God is obviously the most powerful and intelligent thing imaginable, even beyond human imagination, the idea of being omniscient or omnipotent may seem impossible from a logical standpoint as far as we can understand but if God does indeed exist, being all powerful, he can change all scientific laws and theories that contradict our belief in his infinite power/wisdom

quote:

Originally posted by Floorfiller ok i was going to try and lead a discussion of the topic based off of this information, but i really don't think i'm equipped to do so hehe...

good job though. that very thing you posted is one of the first things i learned in my philosophy class.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard Your argument falls down on this point right here. The argument relies on the assumption that the elimination of worldly evil is in our best interest. While one looking at the world from the eyes of a human would likely conclude that God would be looking at existance from the view of an omniscient and omnipotent being, subsequently he would have knowledge that we lack and understanding that we cannot attain. From God's view it may be in our best interest that worldly evil be allowed to exist. You cannot conclude that God cannot be both omniscient and omnibenovolent because he allows evil to exist in the human world because you are not omniscient.... you can not judge god's actions to be right or wrong nor his actions to be correct or incorrect unless you have devine knowledge.

very well put. exactly what i would have said, only worded better

What exactly is "Philosophy"

and please don't give me the dictionary entry unless it explains it well.

___________________
"You won a new refrigerator, great! Where you gonna put it?" - Tony Danza

quote:

Originally posted by Marc Summers What exactly is "Philosophy" and please don't give me the dictionary entry unless it explains it well.

that's a hard question which you can't really even answer because the greatest philosophers in the world can't even put it into words, but i'd say at some sort of basic understanding that it's the persuit of truth.

quote:

Originally posted by Marc Summers What exactly is "Philosophy" and please don't give me the dictionary entry unless it explains it well.

analizing your beliefs. learning why to every question man has ever had about the supernatural. studying the ideas of and behind religion. investigating the causes and principles of reality and knowledge and everything around you. learning about good and evil, discussing the causes. the seeking of knowledge

a lot of philosophy discussion and study is based around religion but it isnt the only thing philosophy incorporates

something like that

EDIT: what floorfiller said. trying to find the truth

quote:

Originally posted by Floorfiller that's a hard question which you can't really even answer because the greatest philosophers in the world can't even put it into words, but i'd say at some sort of basic understanding that it's the persuit of truth.

Hmm, well I imagine everyone is a philosopher in their own way.

I'll post something after I read everyones posts to get an idea.

___________________
"You won a new refrigerator, great! Where you gonna put it?" - Tony Danza

First, I would contend that only a sadomasochist would construct a 'test' for humans whereby one of the questions is to present us with ethical dilemmas to be cruel to unwilling participants in this test. In other words, God is really using the suffering of others as his tool of analysis to determine whether we're qualified to get into heaven? He lacks the omnipotence to make that determination without the existence of suffering?

To take some arguments from J.L Mackie, it is true that there is no explicit contradiction between the statements that there is an omnipotent and wholly good god and that there is evil. But if we add the at least initially plausible premisses that good is opposed to evil in such a way that a being who is wholly good eliminates evil as far as he can, and that there are no limits to what an omnipotent being can do, then we do have a contradiction. A wholly good omnipotent being would eliminate evil completely; if there really are evils, then there cannot be any such being. After all, must an omnibenevolent being not do ALL that it can to maximize the quality of life for all inhabitants in the world it creates? Can it not do so without the existence of evil as omnipotence would imply it would be able to?

The “problem” of the existence of evil together with omnipotence and omnibenevolence only makes sense if God is at most weakly omnipotent (meaning capable of doing only that which is logically possible, i.e. evil is a necessity in the grander scheme of things that even God cannot get around).

Edit: Oh yes and it also works if god is not omnibenevolent

___________________
Retro ...

Last edited by occrider on Mar-07-2006 at 00:08

quote:

Originally posted by D-res depending on how you view it, yes. you can say that the idea of God being able to do anything, even things which seem impossible means that being all powerful or all knowing is impossible but like what has been said, since we as humans dont have divine knowledge and God is obviously the most powerful and intelligent thing imaginable, even beyond human imagination, the idea of being omniscient or omnipotent may seem impossible from a logical standpoint as far as we can understand but if God does indeed exist, being all powerful, he can change all scientific laws and theories that contradict our belief in his infinite power/wisdom

you dont seem to follow, omnibenevolence negates omnipotence, i said it before, someone else said it before in your previous thread, and occrider here just said it again (and explained it).

___________________
People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
Jackson, venomX, jamie, Renegade, Konjin, Akridrot, Miss Bliss.
Psy-T - Down The Rabbit Hole (400minute long acid set)

quote:

Originally posted by Marc Summers What exactly is "Philosophy" and please don't give me the dictionary entry unless it explains it well.

philo = love
sophia = wisdom

it's the pursuit to understand ourselves, the world around us, and beyond.

the sciences evolved from it.

___________________
People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
Jackson, venomX, jamie, Renegade, Konjin, Akridrot, Miss Bliss.
Psy-T - Down The Rabbit Hole (400minute long acid set)