Just the unnecessary? I figure if your goal is to stop suffering migh as well go all out and stop the necessary suffering(which supposebly exist based on this argument) as well. No reason to get the job half done.

The argument in no way points to the elimination of all suffering. Besides, it's a totally different argument. Some suffing is necessary, that's what makes it necessary. To wish to eliminate 'necessary' suffing is a contradiction.

So do people, whats your point?
Why focus just on preventing animal suffering when you included them in in the first sentance? Oh, right. PETA doesnt care about people.

My point isn't to not help people around the world, in fact, I give 10% of my total net income to charitable causes, most being for humans. Just because I have compassion for animals, and thier suffering does not mean that I do not care for my own 'kind'. This would go against the one of the bases of human nature (we always take care of our own kind first). If this is your outrage, where is your support?

So whats your point? Its not like only animals get killed or feel pain daily? Other sention beings, like people for instance get killed or have pain inflicted on them by other people on the daily basis also, and they are the same species. So much for the racism argument.

Read about speciesism. It's a neat new word, not really in common use. It should explain this mix up. You have to ask more fundamental questions, like why should we treat our own species better then anothers? There aren't any strong arguments for it. Any argument you give, I will give the same argument back, but in the form of sexism or racism. Favoring your own species is just a more general use of favoring your own race or sex.

Must remember to pick up a new pair of glasses becouse i even though this analogy is so clear i still fail to see it.

Perhaps you should.

What arguments? You havent given a single valid one to support your cause. With arguments like yours you will not only fail to see any great movement tawards animal righs in your lifetime, but it is much more likely that people in general will stop listening to you all together on the count that some day they will get fed up with all the BS you are throwing into their faces.

I scream because it's an outrage. I have to deal with people everyday that think and act like you do. My argument is simple. If something is capable of feeling pain, we should try our best to reduce that pain. I can then ask, why do you eat meat? Because of the taste? oh, so minor taste takes preference over horrific pain and suffering? Go watch a video on what animals go thru. I doubt you'll stomach it; you will feel bad, and there is a reason for that feeling. People don't want to hear the truth, they are ignorant. I'm just a guy that choose to voice my opinion. I've studied both sides, my minor was in applied ethics. And everything I've read has lead me to this conclusion, and there is no doubt that it is sound. I don't have the space to write out the full book, or ever argument, only the basic forms of it. Then I encourage you to find out for yourself. Self-educate.

Ill try to pick that one up just for the fun of it but i doubt any library aound has one.

If you want the first essay in the book, I'm sure I can forward a copy of it to you. Just one essay, I'm sure it's like 20 pages, which shouldn't be too hard of a read. There are many other books too: "Practical Ethics: any edition" by Singer is also a good book, and I'm sure you'll find it at any library, and surely at any University library.

One final comment: This is what they are teaching in university now. This idea of animal liberation, isn't going to go away. It's been growing for years, and it's growing faster every year. There are so many reasons to not eat meat, health for one. This isn't to say that some people don't need meat, or that free range animal meat is bad. My argument, along with PETA's is that suffering is bad, not the actual killing.

Hope that answers some of the concerns

Last edited by -])ark-Maverick on Apr-20-2006 at 19:20

A reason for not eating meat is health? Excuse me for asking, but why then are vegans told to take vitamins in order to make up for the lack of neccessary nutrition their body needs and could get from eating meat?

PETA are hyprocrites.

Anyone recognize this building? Anyone? Beuler?



It's PETA yes and in the building are...anyone? anyone? Pets.
And what do they do with these pets...anyone? Kill them.
And why do they do this...anyone? Because this is just one of their buildings where they euthanize healthy animals, with war-like percision. They understand that prisoners are much more expensive to house and feed than just killing them off.
Yea...really sounds like they care about suffering...

Like a lot of bad charity cases they put on a show, make lots of noise and controversy and people get sucked into filling their coffers, which is really the main point...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

hahahaha... vegatarians encouraged to take vitamins, everyone is encouraged to take vitamins, and vegatarian cuisine is very healthy and provides all of the required nutrients without the bad stuff, like fat. Look around, vegatarians are alot healther then meat-eaters.

Next, euthanizing does not equal suffering. The point of PETA is to reduce the amount of suffering. That is what they do not have a problem with normal farm practices. In fact, I support the traditional farm. These animals lead awesome wonderful lives, and feel little suffering when they die. It's factory farming that's bad. It's suffering every moment of thier lives that's bad.

Sorry if you misunderstood the point, but the enemy here is pain and suffering. Killing something quickly is miles away from what I'm trying to say.

Hope this answers this one

what about fish ?

___________________

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Most fish lack the biological complexity required. You've heard that "goldfish have a 30 second memory"? Well, it's not exactly true, but fish lack a central nevous system so thier brains do not interpret suffering. They are not 'sentient'. I have used this word a couple times, so here is a link to it's definition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentient

As for right now, this is what biology has proven. I personally believe that fish are capable of some suffering, but I have no scientific proof that they do, so I have to go by that.

quote:

Originally posted by -])ark-Maverick hahahaha... vegatarians encouraged to take vitamins, everyone is encouraged to take vitamins, and vegatarian cuisine is very healthy and provides all of the required nutrients without the bad stuff, like fat. Look around, vegatarians are alot healther then meat-eaters.

Not quite. The only time anyone should be encouraged to take vitamins is when their doctor tells them to because their diet lacks foods that have them naturally. If you eat a well balanced diet, taking vitamins can actually be bad for you because you're getting too much of certain vitamins and minerals.

With that said, please explain to me why the vegetarians I know have been told by their doctors to take vitamins in order to make up for what they don't get by eating meat if their strict diet is so healthy and balanced?

I made my meal choice today in recognition of this awesome topic. An 18 oz. poterhouse steak grilled to medium well perfection washed down with a cold Sam Adams. I then indulged myself with a Punch Gran Puro cigar. I'll never give up eating meat. Ever. It's just too damn tasty.

Well, let us take a quick look at why meat is unhealthy. Every part of meat is fatty, no matter if the fat is "trimmed" or not. Even if you trim it down to the "lean" parts, it is still fatty. The fat in meat is saturated, you know the kind that clogs the arterys, not to mention its high content of cholesterol. Meat also doesn't contain any fiber and passes slowly through the intestine, enter gastroesophageal reflux. Proteins received from eating meat tend to increase blood cholesterol levels, whereas plant proteins have the adverse effect. Soy protein can make up for this.
That being said vegitarians, unless taking the time to plan out meals and control intake of protein, fiber, etc..., have a much higher risk of being malnourished. A lot of vegitarians in my experience have gone about it all wrong, simply taking meat out of their diet and eating sides at the dinner table. If you are lazy, don't be a vegitarian. But there is no doubt that eating vegitarian is MUCH healthier then a meat laced diet. But when your arterys are clogged and I'm going about my merry way, I'll be content in knowing that my "rabbit food" is contributing to my health =P.

Oh and in honor of the post above mine, I made myself a huge salad, drank a glass of soy milk, and smoked a fine bowl of reefer out of a vaporizer. <----- was the edit, had to make clear that I wasn't inhaling combusted smoke, where 95% of the toxins in smoke are derived from.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r You show me an animal with responsibilities and I'll show you an animal with rights...

Nice one Fir3starter !

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Bahahahaha... Vegetarians diets are healthier. You seriously can not argue that they aren't. Ask any doctor, any professional...

And as for my lunch, a very nice almond and spinach salad with raspberry vinagrette, fresh strawberries, and some chips and salsa. I feel great

quote:

Originally posted by Nou Who cares if its better, I like eating animals. They would eat you if they had the chance... you pussy.

Hey, look at me, my name is Nou, and I can always resort to name calling to win my arguements. FYI, it didn't work when you were 10, it's not going to work now.

You can have your beliefs, that's cool, but what I'm challenging, is are they justified? Can you give a good reason why, other then taste? Hey, I like slaves, doesn't make having one right.

And just because they would eat us, doesn't make it right to eat them. We are moral beings, they are not. They have no concept of existance (atleast not like humans), we do and that's what makes being human special. It does not however, give us the right to be tyrannical.

what? what does race have to do with slavery? I didn't say anything about Race. You really need to grow up. This forum is for people who want to have real conversations and real debates about what we feel are important issues. Go post in the COR dude.