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Originally posted by Sunsnail Well, I suppose it wasn't... More intelligence would be a wonderful thing from what I can see. My major concern is that the United States is moving towards a less free country in the name of security. We've all heard that statement before, but I do not think that many people are aware of how real this could happen. I believe that the changes from freedom to security will be extremely subtle and over a long period of time. I realize that many people are afraid of terrorist activities but do you truly think that having millions of telephone numbers is going to help? Is the increase in security worth losing another inch of your privacy and freedom? I'm truly interested in your response, and would be glad to do some furthur reading on this topic. I've always taken pride in the fact that the US government, although somewhat corrupt and wasteful, allowed more freedom and privacy than so many other countries. I would deeply disturbed to find out that I could no longer be proud of that.

I want to add that, generally, once these privacy-limiting actions are passed, they tend to snowball. An old cliche (somewhat modified) "you give them an inch and they'll take a mile." I believe that the same should be applied to our government. I also think fearing terrorists is silly... unless you're in a place like Iraq of course

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Originally posted by donnybrasco Because it worked so well prior to 9-11?

The intelligence agencies did their job just fine as far as 9-11 goes. There were plenty of warning of an attack, which this administration ignored!

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
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Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

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Originally posted by Sunflower ...Is the increase in security worth losing another inch of your privacy and freedom? I'm truly interested in your response...

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN ...i dont wish anyone to die from future terror attacks (in any country), but where do you draw the line on how far youre willing to oppress your people in order to protect them?

I won't draw it here, that's for sure.

Is this method of gathering intel resulting in a loss of some "privacy" for all Americans? Yes. An extremely MINUTE one, for sure...almost imperceptable. And certainly the impact on the average American will not likely ever be felt or be a problem.

Does the trade-off of better intel and the net result of preventing more attacks easily off-set the minute losses in our "privacy"? HELL YES it does!

I have weighed this carefully enough. It's not a rash decision. The world is not the same place it was before the communication age, and now we need progressive laws that keep pace with progressive technology. To turn a blind eye in the name of protecting antiquated intel gathering restrictions would be foolish and pointless, especially considering the ramifications that protecting this idealism could entail.

Last edited by donnybrasco on May-12-2006 at 06:11

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z The intelligence agencies did their job just fine as far as 9-11 goes. There were plenty of warning of an attack, which this administration ignored!

blah, blah, blah.....you want to talk about what Clinton's administration ignored too? This isn't a Bush failure, so much as it was an over-all intel failure that started long before 9-11.

I understand where you're coming from. I just fear that allowing this to be tolerated (plus they tried to keep it secret) will result in americans allowing more privacy to be taken away. At what point would you draw the line? Do you think that by that time you would draw the line that you would be able to stop the momentum of taking privacy away for security reasons?

Yes, I absolutely am certain of it; It's called "The Vote". Any Politician or party that ever tries to take too much control can and will get voted out of office.

Besides, Bush isn't a Dictator. A large number of Democrats have supported him on these Security issues as well. They voted for them in fact.

Yes, of course they can get voted out. Like I said earlier, these changes will probably occur very slowly over time. Probably small enough changes so that you wouldn't notice it unless you looked back several years.

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Besides, Bush isn't a Dictator. A large number of Democrats have supported him on these Security issues as well. They voted for them in fact.

yea, I'm just speaking from a general american's view.


At what point would you say to yourself "Woah I don't think I'm comfortable with that"

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z ^^ True. (<--EDIT: That was in reference to Groundhogboy's post preceding donnybrasco's) I hate arguments of the form "Well, it's the way it is/has been for a while, so we should accept it [edit 2]-> or what's the big deal?" Common practice doesn't justify an act.

It was a statement, not a fact.
Otherwise I probably would have provided some insight...
(just a thought)

I thought the States were in a War Against Terrorism™ btw?

___________________
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The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
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Originally posted by shaolin_Z The intelligence agencies did their job just fine as far as 9-11 goes. There were plenty of warning of an attack, which this administration ignored!

Yea! Because Clinton's government did sooooo much on that front.
Bush is in office how many months and 9/11 happens; yea, must have been Bush's fault.
That arguement is so old and cliche....

The States were being attacked for YEARS before 9-11; wake up.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Yeah, I love it when you silly Bush apologists defend any and everything Bush says and does, damn the consequences and contradictions:

i guess you can call me a FDR apologist too. (that term is getting played btw) if any president did the same, i would defend it. same can't be said for you only because it would be your party's president and i think you would lack the moral courage to be so indignant if that were the case.
it's a matter of ideology, not demagoguery. it seems demagoguery is the only thing you are good at. keep it up.

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Well putting the questionable problems of this Adminstration's actions aside for a moment, let's consider the possible legal ramifications of what these phone companies have done: And one doesn't even need to be a liberal to wonder such a basic issue as this.

no stupid. what you fail to recognize, being a liberal, is that you and your lost party want us to "connect the dots, without us being able to collect the dots." to quote James Lileks. dangerously thinking that the dots will miraculously show themselves to us and say "hey! i'm right here."

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Well it's a pity that the NSA along with the phone companies actually have to follow the law first and foremost before obtaining such private information, otherwise we become no better than the fucking bastards we are trying to track down and destroy in the first place.

oh please i've told you before. let the the big boys handle the big jobs.

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Originally posted by donnybrasco blah, blah, blah.....you want to talk about what Clinton's administration ignored too? This isn't a Bush failure, so much as it was an over-all intel failure that started long before 9-11.

See the problem is, most of the liberals and libertarians on this board weren't really blown away by Clinton, either. We're more followers of own personal principles than a party stereotype. They've all got their flaws, but I personally feel that the flaws of the current administration are far worse than seen in my lifetime and worse than a lot of other periods in history.

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Originally posted by donnybrasco Is this method of gathering intel resulting in a loss of some "privacy" for all Americans? Yes. An extremely MINUTE one, for sure...almost imperceptable. And certainly the impact on the average American will not likely ever be felt or a problem.

How do you know how imperceptable and MINUTE they are?? The administration blocks EVERY investigation lately by not giving the Justice Department clearance. I mean, that's why the probe into the wiretapping got shut down. You blindly follow someone who you've seen down the most perilous road. What do they have to hide? Do they really distrust the Justice Department to leak info? I mean, they didn't ascend that high easily.

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Last edited by Groundhog Boy on May-12-2006 at 05:15

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Originally posted by Q5echo i guess you can call me a FDR apologist too. (that term is getting played btw) if any president did the same, i would defend it. same can't be said for you only because it would be your party's president and i think you would lack the moral courage to be so indignant if that were the case. it's a matter of ideology, not demagoguery. it seems demagoguery is the only thing you are good at. keep it up.

FDR was one of the worst presidents at preserving civil liberties and the spirit of democracy. However, a great president at fighting a war (something I'm afraid I give Bush no credit at all) and implementing Keynesian theory with some fortuitious success.

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