quote:

Originally posted by Diginerd You're right it doesn't mater how it's done. But there is a world of difference between "Good" for you and your mates, and "Excellent, proven floor filler".

There are two steps on my scale of music. Good or not good. There is no "kinda good." It's ether somthing I really like or somthing I really "don't" like.

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Blablabla, no disrespect here, but I think some people think too much about making music. This is why they don't create anything near reasonable music (though my music sucks too).
Sometimes when I read posts, I get the idea music production is rocket science. Well, its not. Just be creative, and if you are, you will make good music eventually. I know some pro producers personally who create fantastic tunes, and sometimes I'm surprised of their lack of "knowledge". Many times I know more of certain techniques etc, so why are those guys better than me? Because they don't sit at production forums 50 hours a day, they don't read books about production. They are being creative and just make music. Don't fill your brain with useless knowledge, just make music.

Off topic here, but I think this needs to be said every now and then, sorry for that. You will probably think, who am I to say these things? Well I am nobody, so ignore me if you want.

@digi

Okay, look, I don't know why you're pushing this matter, but I'll resolve it in a moment with an example.

I really don't understand why someone as intelligent you would be making such blatant blanket statements as this; I understand your idea, and agree with it in general, but to stubbornly be so resolute and ignore all other possibilities? Seems silly, no?

First, I want to point out that for some reason you're assuming that I don't understand these basic concepts you're outlining; you obviously know that I know what mastering is, etc, and the different processes it involves, so I'm not sure why you're telling me to check up on "threads on it", when I've probably participated in them all. This doesn't make you seem any better than me, nor do you need to make any distinction like that, it doesn't work this way.

Second, just because it's your opinion does not mean it is universal, nor does its application in your work or even the work of the majority make it mandatory, more creative, or necessarily more efficient in any way.

Now, let's take an example of a time when the initial mixing of your tracks and the final mixing of your song are all integrally pulled together into one cohesive movement. Step back from the bubble for a moment and consider full-on Psytrance.

One of my favorite genres of "electronica". :grin:

I'm not sure if you're ever written any psy, and I'm not going to assume either way, but just in case I will outline the very simple principle of the "foundation", as you say, of a fullon psy track, as well as the merging of "production theory" with "music theory".

Your low-end in a psy track has to be *perfect*, and the processing and mixing of the kick and bass signals have to be spot-on. It makes or breaks your track, and you *have* to build it from the bottom up with the mixing console providing half of the creative movement of the task, and thus a large scale portion of your entire track becomes based on the results of your ability to manage "music theory" and "production theory" simultaneously as you go. You need to mix it from the word go, and then you need to back it up with solid mixing throughout the track, else your song does not evolve.

Careful about making assumptions about other people and subjective enterprises; just because I don't pick apart every little detail of yours or someone elses post doesn't mean that I don't understand the concepts, because I assure you, I very well may and don't see a need to comment. And it doesn't mean that I don't have my own perspective, as do you, to throw into the conversation.

Take it as you will.

Oh, by the way, the notion that commerce supercedes art is not one I share.

PLUR,
jay

+1 for thois also; none of this is necessary to make good music, but it's still fun to talk about. this is our hobby afterall. aren't you glad you didn't take up knitting instead? i bet the knitting forums get pretty boring fast!!

Last edited by DJ Shibby on Jun-13-2006 at 20:37

quote:

Originally posted by Thois Blablabla, no disrespect here, but I think some people think too much about making music. This is why they don't create anything near reasonable music (though my music sucks too). Sometimes when I read posts, I get the idea music production is rocket science. Well, its not. Just be creative, and if you are, you will make good music eventually. I know some pro producers personally who create fantastic tunes, and sometimes I'm surprised of their lack of "knowledge". Many times I know more of certain techniques etc, so why are those guys better than me? Because they don't sit at production forums 50 hours a day, they don't read books about production. They are being creative and just make music. Don't fill your brain with useless knowledge, just make music. Off topic here, but I think this needs to be said every now and then, sorry for that. You will probably think, who am I to say these things? Well I am nobody, so ignore me if you want.

You finally get my idea! People spend too much time telling themselves they would be better with x piece of gear or with x piece of software or if I do somthing x way, my productions will sound better. Bottom line is that production is hard work and if you are lazy your music will sound "not good." All you have to do is put more work and thought into it.

STOP THINKING START PLAYING

Pce,
DJS

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MYSPACE
http://www.myspace.com/djsentinelmusic

Oh boy.. Me dons Nomex underwear...

Mastering whilst mixing is dumb, and non-effective. That's not just my opinion. Ask around.

It's so dumb you actually said so yourself when backing up from "You can even MASTER when mixing", but you backed off and said it based on CPU power, not anything to do with the real reasons.

I didn't want to rehash for hours on end mastering in a thread about mixing and writing the pages disussed on mastering.

You got my goat right there with that. Real mastering is something that is vital that it's done right. It can turn a So So mix into a good one, and great mix into something stunning. Anyway, enough of that..

As for Writing & Mixing or Writing then Mixing, if you can do it to perfection then fine, but you seem closed to the idea to try it the otherway and see the benefits from it... You are fighting so hard against at least trying it it stikes me as you being closed and defensive.

I'm not saying totally ignore mixing as you go along, I'm saying once you are "Done" track the whole thing off and try rebuilding the song, this time concentrating on just the mix.

You'd be surprised.

You actually raised another interesting point. Where do you get your sound? Do you sit and make & sample each and every sound as you go along? Or do you build up a collection of them in advance with maybe a quick tweak to get it to fit? Or do you sit and stop and build something from scatch?

If you pre-build to keep your creative juices flowing then you're already starting to split up your production into stages.

A few points to end with:-

1) Half (actually usually more than half) the battle is getting decent sounds.

2) You have to be inspired by them when writing

3) The whole left brain right brain thing is a bugger.

4) Write Mix Release and be happy

5) Wide distribution of your music means releaseing records which involves commercialism at least at some level.

6) Knitting circles are vicious arenas of vice and inequity...

And if you hadn't guessed already I'm bored, and waiting to get my studio built out...

I haven't really considered the "pre-building" much. I like that idea and shall try to impliment it. Periods of mostly left-brain activity: synth programming, drum searching, effects building...

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Audio-s

quote:

Originally posted by Diginerd Oh boy.. Me dons Nomex underwear... Mastering whilst mixing is dumb, and non-effective. That's not just my opinion. Ask around.

Please read my post again, thanks.

Actually read it before replying this time.

I did. But you blew it the first two times.. Enough.

lmao this thread is turning hilarious now. Mastering while composing is dumb imo. It's pointless to start all your mastering plugins while arranging and all that junk because you're colouring the sound when it might not be THAT great yet. This is when EQing comes in handy, but if you already coloured your sound, then you don't get the original sound coming through do you?

Everyone has their own ways of starting a track and attempting to complete it and yes I do agree with Diginerd that you should have separate processes so you don't get stuck at one point such as trying to EQ your sound to get it "perfect."

My idea is concentrate on your arrangement, melodies, sounds(without effects), and maybe some automations and work on your effects processing such as flangers, phasers, filter automations, dynamics, crescendos and decrescendos afterwards. I like to think of everything like an orchestra. Composers such as Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven worked out masterpieces because they concentrated on being creative first, working on which sounds should be louder and softer during composing and even live just like a music conductor. Concentrating on your mix first is more important than adding your effects that can be put on whenever you please. You'll constantly be changing the mix so work on that first.

Write the music first, then add your final touch to it.

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Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.

Wow.

I don't understand why everyone is talking about *mastering* while composing? That isn't what the thread is about. Seriously, am I not using the language properly to get across the idea in my head?

Are my examples and distinctions and retractions not making sense?

Tell me, what can I do to connect with you so that you understand what I'm trying to tell you?

What can I change about the way I'm presenting my information to make you better understand it? Where am I going wrong here?

Am I seriously the only one who sees that *NO ONE* is talking about *MASTERING WHILE COMPOSING*? It seems like you picked up this keyword and simply ignored everything else I had to say; there is NO discussion on mastering while composing.

Help me out here guys; I'm not an idiot, I will try my best to bend to your mindset to better help you understand where this conversation careened down a path of misinformation and off-topic rants.

lmao shibby we totally understand i just felt like putting my two cents in on the issue :P

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Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.