quote:

Originally posted by Boomer187 i use a lot of things that suck in my life doesn't make them cool.

oh noes, not the ever important coolness factor!

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quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T oh noes, not the ever important coolness factor!

an object can never be captured bcuz as soon as it is captured it ceases to be an object and turns into a figment of what once was an object. an object exists bcuz it is free to be what it is, when you capture it, it is no longer able to be what it is freely. therefore it is not an object anymore but a cold symbol of what was once a three dimensional object.

for example find a pebble. on the ground it is a pebble and exists whether or not you touch it, it is free. now pick it up and close your fist around it. your sense of touch tells you that on some plane it still exists but according to your sense of sight it is no more. holding the pebble forces the pebble to be in your hand and not on the ground where it belongs. in this way it is already losing its "object" properties. now if you draw the pebble it has not one single object property since it is forced to be on the paper and two dimensional ect.


well thats my thoughts on the subject, goodnite.

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quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T i think my explanation works better than yours

Well, considering the philosophical background that gave birth to durrealism and Magritte in particular, together with the fact that the picture is hosted on the domain "foucault.info" I thought more modern theory would be applicable (po-mo in particular).

Without philosophy, science and politics are ladders in space leading to nowhere. Philosophy, while not necessarily being very practical, ensures that the ladders are leaning against the right walls. Besides which I think someone like Foucault can be applied to formulate some practical and powerful strategies.

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quote:

Originally posted by rapfiend03

I would say it ceases to be what it is the moment you call it a pebble

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hmm... interesting thoughts

I, personally, am still analysing two ideas: one of them is similar to what Astroboy said (By the way, I know Lacan read some stuff from Wittgenstein, but do you know of any books and articles written by Lacan himself on languages?) and the other one is rather contrary to what they're claiming in the picture - both are pipes (according to what I believe to be a somewhat Skinnerian kind of thought).

quote:

Originally posted by astroboy If telepathy of some form ever became scientifically possible, the change to the very nature of comunication (and therefore knowledge and human nature itself) would be truly astounding. Perhaps we would finally capture the real. One can only speculate.

hmm... I disagree at some degree.

First because you'd still be depending on perceptions for non-human materials. Not just your perception, but also that of others (as you'd be acquiring knowledge through them). Even if you make a telepathic network with the entire world (Omega Point), you'd have to interpret the incoming information, and you'd end up filtering the real once again. And so would others.

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quote:

Originally posted by astroboy I would say it ceases to be what it is the moment you call it a pebble

hehe possible but since it seems only humans can mass communicate (on a global scale) and have the apparent authority to "name" objects calling it a pebble would not nessecarily strip it of it free choice of name. for example, its halloween and you're dressed as Darth Vader. Some kid shouts out "look mom its darth vader!" at that moment no matter what the kid said you are still you. to phrase it better you still percieve yourself as you, not as Darth. so now back to the pebble. if i call it a pebble it does not change the pebble as it retains its own self-identity no matter what i call it. now gender roles get kinda tricky but names and naming objects is pretty concrete.

going back to the pipe. it cannot exist on any other plane than the "real". in this instance im reffering to "real" as daily life.

once again my disclaimer: these are my own thoughts not based in any particular philosophy, although i am the first to acknowledge many of these ideas have been found and effectivly written upon by other greater thinkers than i. im just finding my own philosophy through their thoughts

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quote:

Originally posted by astroboy hmm interesting, but imho wouldn't come close to solving the dilema... but i'm a post-modernism/structuralism whore.

Well coupled with this would be "rational truth > cultural truth"

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quote:

Originally posted by rapfiend03 for example find a pebble. on the ground it is a pebble and exists whether or not you touch it, it is free. now pick it up and close your fist around it. your sense of touch tells you that on some plane it still exists but according to your sense of sight it is no more. holding the pebble forces the pebble to be in your hand and not on the ground where it belongs. in this way it is already losing its "object" properties. now if you draw the pebble it has not one single object property since it is forced to be on the paper and two dimensional ect.

I think its better to look at symbols is a kind of pointers. Or more specifically as pointers to specific (or constelations of) characteristics of the true object.

If I say "stone" then it doesn't matter that its not the true object because my symbol/pointer can be used to trace a route to the true form.

Likewise if I say "the apple tastes sweet" obviously the word "sweet" does not begin to encompass the flavour of an apple, but what it does is it points you in the direction of its true form, or in this case its true taste.

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