didn't read your whole post, but regarding your last clause:

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley ... following Israel's repeated and deliberate targeting of the UN compound last week...

apparently you missed these ones:

quote:

Canadian Killed Complained U.N. Position Was Shielding Hezbollah IMRA reports (via colleague Grayson Levy): "...the tragic loss of a soldier yesterday who I happen to know and I think probably is from my Regiment. We've received e-mails from him a few days ago and he described the fact that he was taking within - in one case -- three meters of his position "for tactical necessity - not being targeted". Now that's veiled speech in the military and what he was telling us was Hizbullah fighters were all over his position and the IDF were (sic) targeting them and that's a favorite trick by people who don't have representation in the UN. They use the UN as shields knowing that they can't be punished for it."

http://www.shinesforall.com/archive...ian_killed.html

quote:

... It was also reported that Hezbollah fired from the vicinity of four UN positions at Alma ash Shab, Tibnin, Brashit, and At Tiri.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr010.pdf

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Erm ... do you have anything else other than the New York Sun or a quote from a UN document refering to different UN compounds to the one that was bombed?

quote:

There have been suggestions the Israeli shelling may have been aimed at Hizbollah operations near the U.N. outpost, but Fawzi reiterated that Hizbollah was not in the immediate vicinity of Khiam on the day it was demolished. "Hizbollah sometimes uses U.N. positions as a shield. We have reported that faithfully and extensively to the Security Council when it happens," he said. http://thestar.com.my/news/story.as...ec=Worldupdates

Ahh now I have to make another long reply
Arguing against the unemployed is very costly

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Swap 'communist' for socialist and remove 'colonial guilt-trip induced' (I think the British empire was great! All the world problems came about after we left so make of that what you will!!) and you're around the right area! (Still have to tell me who imposed that way of thinking on me to make the accusation work tho!)

Ehh close enough lets just make this one quick and I'll give myself another point: 2-1.

quote:

It's actually 1-1 seeing as you can't spell for shit!

Agrh!! Or is it spelled Argh!!? :mad

quote:

I wasn't throwing my weight behind such suggestions, just making a point that if I was the type of person who cannot hold their hands up when wrong, I could have!

Good call, some fights are better left ... ehh I forget how that one goes.

quote:

Ah so just taking the bits you can argue against and leaving the rest?! Now that really would alter the score!

Ok, I was trying to be nice, but now I will replie to every single paragraph you quoted to make sure you aren't disappointed.

quote:

Well you may or may not be aware that that Israel human rights group (I forget the name, summat like B'tlem?) has, and is, conducting investigations about the IDF using Palestinian human shields in Gaza and Jenin so that perhaps puts the Israeli 'moral' high ground into question (which is something pro-Israelis use a lot when justifiying attacking militant positions surrounded by civilians)

I am, just visited their site the other day after Tahti posted the thing about Israeli torture. I still find most their claims baseless and isolated incidents.

However, the Israeli Supreme Court has ruled on using Palestinians as human shields, I think one time in favor and one time against. Something like, you can use him as a shield if he is associated with terrorist, but not if he is a just a neighbor or someone unassociated. But don't quote me on that.

Regardless, I find the whole point mute. I don't really care for the moral high ground effort. I'll get into that more below...

quote:

Well of course that is true, but it kind of brushes over the reality of this kind of warfare. There won't be many 'traditional' conflicts in the post-Cold War world. The vast majority of conflicts will be low level guerilla insurgencies like Palestine, Iraq, Chechnya, Kashmir, etc, etc for the precise reason that this is the only way to fight against an enemy with sophisticated weaponary. Look at Iraq. Saddam was toppled within a matter of weeks, yet now, after 3 years of conflict, we simply cannot defeat the insurgency. Exactly the same in Palestine/Lebanon (but for a LOT longer than in Iraq!) Quite simply, these 'wars' cannot be won with guns. You have to remove the 'sea' so the 'fish' drown (and I'm currently working on getting that phrase copy righted cos it is possibly the greatest international security phrase of the modern world, and I thought of it). I know it's obvious why Hizballah don't 'come into the open and have it out' but it's just not useful to blame their tactics on why civilians die because you might as well place equal amount of blame on Israel's military superiority. To defeat this kind of enemy, you need certain tactics - and those tactics are not military...

Ok, see the reality is Hizbullah fights the way they do not because they have to, but because it is more successful than fighting as a conventional gurrellia or milita force. Sure, a lot of high-technology on the Israeli armies side could be reasoned as the cause for this, but I would disagree as terror has existed before percision weapons or even before it was obvious Israel would control the theatre in any campaign it would wage.

Hizbullah, mistakenly enough boasted, and might actually have believed that it was able to triumph over the Israeli military due to the way it waged war. This was only partly right, Hizbullah is able to triumph so long as they don't play by the laws of war and Israel does.

When Israel no longer choose to operate by that way it is able to beat that type of play. There are different methods and different rates of success.

But, lets take something completely arbitary: An ammo dump in the center of a city disguised as a school.

Would you believe in war, between two civilized natiosn, operating by the laws of war, that it would ever be necessary to blow up and destory a school in the middle of a densly populated urban area?

No, you wouldn't. Now if Israel were to treat Hamas or Hezbullah in the same manner as a international-law abiding nation, Israel would never destory any schools, never target any Hamas commanders and chiefs, never prevent arms and ammo disguised as civilian frieght from entering, and would really be at the mercy of such organization.

Now if Israel disobeys those international laws of war, it can blow up that school/arms depot, it can assinated the opearting officers of its enemy, it can prevent resupplies.

I don't think anyone would argue that Israel should be handicapped against fighting its enemy in such ways, everyone understands that Israel should be able to hit the above mentioend targets.

Yet despite making that fundamental connection that Israel does not have to obey the laws of war if the enemy does not follow the laws of war they still want Israel to operate by handicaps.

Ok, Israel can destory a school it knows is an ammo depot, but it can't destory it if kids are actually at the school at the sametime.

It's ok to bomb and prevent your enemies supplie lines, so long as they don't happen to be transported in ambulances, and so on.

To each one there is a limitation. And as I stated before, yes civilan casualties should be mininized as much as possible, but who is ultimately responsible if that school full of children were to be bombed?

Obviously the public reaction would be to condemn those who bombed the school and killed X ammount of innocent school children, a tradegy, no massacre that all the world would worry and blame Israel for. Would anyone condemn the groups who made the school an ammo depot? Most likely not.

And thats the problem in essence, when the world is able to point its finger after such an incident with the same rage and emotion and intencity onto that group that it would to those who bombed the school terrorism and the escape from playing by the international laws of war would stop. Stealing from your copyrighted analogy, your sea would be dried.

Once the terrorist enemies understand they must take the field to fight, civilians can be spared death and pain and everybody wins.

And thats really what it boils down to, when will the world be able to change its thinking from blaming the ones who bomb the school to the ones who abused it and made a military target in the first place?

Because when the world starts thinking of the ones who abused the school as responsible, those groups will no longer be able to fight in such manngers and will be forced to take the field.

I don't think I made a good attempt at explaining the problem, but this is in essence why although as a human being it pains me some of the things the IDF does (directly or indirectly, but mostly indirectly just like in cases like Qana) I see no ethical problem in their actions. And in a preverse way, I sometimes wonder if I should encourage it because I believe it might help the world to overcome that mental hiccup it is stuck in.

The laws of war were designed for the weaker party not the stronger. Any stronger party can march in kill, rape, and destory a civilian population indiscriminately. It is the weaker that is unable to apply the same retribution to the stronger party's civilian base. The laws of war were not meant to give anyone an advantage over anyone else, and they don't. They were meant to prevent war from being more costly then it has too.

quote:

Like I said to CHRles (I think) where do they expect these people to go? I was just thinking that if we were in a war and the enemey told the people of Leeds they were gonna bomb it (0.5 million people) and to get out, how would they all be able to get out all at once in a short space of time? Impossible. Even worse in a Middle Eastern country I suppose. Still, it is probably highly likely Hizballah were operating there cos I don't honestly believe Israel wanted to kill massive amounts of innocents (cos of the bad publicity if anything)

They gave them aboud a week of notice. But people can evacuate quick when they have to, I know from experience with the Hurricans here in the South.

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I am aware of both sides of the argument and the truth will never be known (altho it is worth pointing out that when it happened, the Israeli army were ordered to stop shelling...)

It was just an FYI.

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You need to remove 'Lebanese government' from that, then I can share your frustration (also it's not Hamas per se, but elements of Hamas, most probobly, imo, Qassam). With those modifications I agree with that sentiment

I think they could have prevented more then they did.

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That was Israel's primary objective all along. Imo, the military plan to take out Hizballah was drawn up when they were forced out in 2000. They've just been looking for an excuse ever since. Kinda like all the 'good' things America was able to pursue following 9/11.

Maybe, Israel knew they would have to do something about Hizbullah situation sooner or later. Because of I beleive foreign pressures (read USA wanting things to be quite before Iraq war) they were not able to address the growing threat on their own terms. The kidnapping, just like 9-11 brought forth the reality to the populace that the problem must be acted on sooner than later and can't just be brushed off.

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See above re. tactics for an insurgency war

I said I'd say something for each paragraph you wrote.

quote:

Again, see above for same reason

Ditto.

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Suppose we do, you live in America!

Yes, I'm special

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My take on the situation was that civil war was nearly breaking out in the occupied territories between Fatah and Hamas. Resolution of that conflict was taking place and Fatah were pushing Hamas for a compromise whereby they would recognise Israel (and thereby progress to the next stage of the peace process which would be border negotiation - a huge step forward) I think elements of Hamas didn't want that and kidnapped the soldier to provoke Israel's obvious response, ensuring that compromise wasn't reached. Israel, sadly, was only too willing to oblige

I think whatever compromised that would have been reached would have still been below any bar that could make realistic negotiations possible.

Palestinians society has to change its way.
It must understand for instance, that there is nothing in the world they can do to change the current opinions of Israeli. I don't believe that under any forseeable border argeement between Israel and the Palestinians for instance that Israel woudl be willing to give up Jerusalem as they did under Barak's proposal.

All future Israeli proposals will be less than what Barak was prepared to offer not more. So IMO, the peace process is really dead, as I assume the same feelings are on the Palestinian side (it will accept more not less than what was offered).

quote:

Imo, it has to work both ways. The multinational force cannot go there to do Israel's dirty work. 1) Hizballah will ensure they meet the same fate as Israel the last time round and 2) they need to remain impartial. I would assume that should Hizballah continue to fire rockets, the multinational force would use force to stop that. But it should work both ways. If a ceasefire is agreed, and Israel continue to attack Lebanon, the multinational force should protect Lebanon as much as it should protect Israel. Not to mention their own personal safety following Israel's repeated and deliberate targeting of the UN compound last week...

Sure, Israel has no problem with that. It will always give any a chance to do what they are supposed to first. But if they drop the ball, Israel can't just let the ball stop rolling... it'll pick it up and do what it needs to be done to protect its soverigns.

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quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Ahh now I have to make another long reply Arguing against the unemployed is very costly

I'm not unemployed you cheeky git!

I'm gonna try and keep this one down a bit so anything I miss out means I either agree or I consider it irrelevent (or that we'll agree to disagree)

quote:

Ok, see the reality is Hizbullah fights the way they do not because they have to, but because it is more successful than fighting as a conventional gurrellia or milita force...Once the terrorist enemies understand they must take the field to fight, civilians can be spared death and pain and everybody wins

Well no, actually, the terrorists would lose. And that is why that won't happen. Guerilla warfare is a tactic. Tactics are used to win. There's a reason why modern militaries use their airforces - cos it's easier and less of a risk to themselves. It makes it easier to win! Exactly the same with guerilla warfare.

quote:

And thats the problem in essence, when the world is able to point its finger after such an incident with the same rage and emotion and intencity onto that group that it would to those who bombed the school terrorism and the escape from playing by the international laws of war would stop. Stealing from your copyrighted analogy, your sea would be dried.

Not sure if you used my excellent analogy correctly there but I'll try and fix that. It was some revolutionary (probly Che Guevara) who said to mount a successful guerilla war, the guerillas must become fish and use the population as their sea. Now that doesn't mean they hide behind them (ie. human shields) that means they must always have their support. So if we change what you just said a bit, and swap "the world" for "the Lebanese" or "the Palestinians" fingering blame towards the terrorists then the sea would be dry and groups such as Hizballah, Hamas, etc would not be able to opperate. These groups have mustered support for their anti-Israel stance 1) by the services they provide to their populations and 2) by the fact it's easy to convince their population it's all Israel's fault especially when Israel takes the over-the-top action it does. I'm not saying Israel shouldn't defend itself, of course not, but just THINK before they act on what consequences it will have on support for these groups they are trying to destroy. Because whilst ever that support is there, these groups are invincible...

quote:

They gave them aboud a week of notice. But people can evacuate quick when they have to, I know from experience with the Hurricans here in the South.

Am I right in assuming this is a fairly often occurance? And that there are stringent plans in place should this happen? Not a great comparison if that's correct (not to mention America and Lebanon would be somewhat different in their capability to undertake such a task)

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley I'm not unemployed you cheeky git!

Oh congrats on the new job, oh now I remember, you do have a job, you just wanted to quit it, is that right?

quote:

I'm gonna try and keep this one down a bit so anything I miss out means I either agree or I consider it irrelevent (or that we'll agree to disagree)

Yea! That's the spirit!0

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Well no, actually, the terrorists would lose. And that is why that won't happen. Guerilla warfare is a tactic. Tactics are used to win. There's a reason why modern militaries use their airforces - cos it's easier and less of a risk to themselves. It makes it easier to win! Exactly the same with guerilla warfare.

Thats where they differ, I think the above is not true. Israel could just as easily fight amongst civilians, hide its ammo dumps in civilian areas, have its soldiers not wear uniform, etc. But it choose to do these things not because its population woudln't support it otherwise (hell the population would probably be all for no uniforms and Soldiers on gaurd duty just dressed up to look like any other arab).

Terrorist fight the way they do because yes it is successful, but thats not saying that not fighting a pure gurellia campagin will be less successful. My point was that the only reason the terrorist are successful is because they neglect the laws of war. If there enemy were to neglect the laws of war as they do, they would be as ineffective as terrorists as they would as gurellias.

quote:

Not sure if you used my excellent analogy correctly there but I'll try and fix that. It was some revolutionary (probly Che Guevara) who said to mount a successful guerilla war, the guerillas must become fish and use the population as their sea. Now that doesn't mean they hide behind them (ie. human shields) that means they must always have their support. So if we change what you just said a bit, and swap "the world" for "the Lebanese" or "the Palestinians" fingering blame towards the terrorists then the sea would be dry and groups such as Hizballah, Hamas, etc would not be able to opperate. These groups have mustered support for their anti-Israel stance 1) by the services they provide to their populations and 2) by the fact it's easy to convince their population it's all Israel's fault especially when Israel takes the over-the-top action it does. I'm not saying Israel shouldn't defend itself, of course not, but just THINK before they act on what consequences it will have on support for these groups they are trying to destroy. Because whilst ever that support is there, these groups are invincible...

Sure I agree with that, but even beyond that if the world thinks terrorist tactics are wrong in the same fevor that they believe Israel bombing a bunch of school kids is wrong, then the Palestinians and Hizbullah supports over the longterm will disintegrate with their opinions.. they will be shown the light so to speak.

The harsher the international opinion, then arab opinon, and then only local opinion will terror die. You can look at the inverse (Lebanon say as presented by the media) where the civilians are against the terrorist (hizbullah) but other parts (the arab world) saw not bad it it.

quote:

Am I right in assuming this is a fairly often occurance? And that there are stringent plans in place should this happen? Not a great comparison if that's correct (not to mention America and Lebanon would be somewhat different in their capability to undertake such a task)

All they do is issue a mandatory decleration to evacuate (the leabense government could have done the same for the sake of its civilians). And to say that Lebanon has less unnatrual disasters then the gulf coast has recently had natrual disasters is a stretch...

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well , there is also another consequence of this war , that people not living in the middle east , might not see .

This war , gave the people of the middle east in specific , more reason ( if that is even possible ) to hate israel and the US. People from different races and religions ( christianity as well ) are united in this stance. The general public now supports hizbollah and hamas more than ever . and you can see that , in the daily , on-going vivid protests in countries such as Saudi Arabia , Kuwait , egypt , Jordan , to name a few.

Although the leaders of these countries will do what the US tells them to do , to ensure that their leadership positions , remain intact ! But you can slowly see , the pressure from the general public , actually influencing the leaders, they will realize , that they cant keep ignoring the people's opinions and demands !

This also means , that you can predict , which parties will be elected in ANY elections in the middle east in the coming years (muslim organizations and leaders in case you didnt understand me ) . Unless the leaders intervene to alter the result , such as the past elections in egypt, then the outcome is imminent .

This war is being fought in the name of terrorism ; we want to kill the roots of terrorism they claim . But cant you see , that this will just make it worse ?? You just gave the people more incentives to carry out more attacks . really , the effect is the total opposite of the claim !

Also , in time , the US will ask itself , is it worth it , supporting israel to that extent, and in return , creating such a vast and large number of enemies worldwide ? The middle eastern leaders only support the US , because they dont have a choice, period. Personal interests of leaders come first.

The americans , WILL question US foreign policy , sooner or later. When they study carefuly the pros and cons of their current actions. At the same time , all it takes is a small decision from Saudi Arabia , stating that it will cut down its daily oil productions , or it will not accept US dollars in return for oil.... I would like to see how the US will react then !

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Last edited by qussay on Aug-03-2006 at 09:36

quote:

Originally posted by qussay well , there is also another consequence of this war , that people not living in the middle east , might not see . This war , gave the people of the middle east in specific , more reason ( if that is even possible ) to hate israel and the US. People from different races and religions ( christianity as well ) are united in this stance. The general public now supports hizbollah and hamas more than ever . and you can see that , in the daily , on-going vivid protests in countries such as Saudi Arabia , Kuwait , egypt , Jordan , to name a few. Although the leaders of these countries will do what the US tells them to do , to ensure that their leadership positions , remain intact ! But you can slowly see , the pressure from the general public , actually influencing the leaders, they will realize , that they cant keep ignoring the people's opinions and demands ! This also means , that you can predict , which parties will be elected in ANY elections in the middle east in the coming years (muslim organizations and leaders in case you didnt understand me ) . Unless the leaders intervene to alter the result , such as the past elections in egypt, then the outcome is imminent . This war is being fought in the name of terrorism ; we want to kill the roots of terrorism they claim . But cant you see , that this will just make it worse ?? You just gave the people more incentives to carry out more attacks . really , the effect is the total opposite of the claim ! Also , in time , the US will ask itself , is it worth it , supporting israel to that extent, and in return , creating such a vast and large number of enemies worldwide ? The middle eastern leaders only support the US , because they dont have a choice, period. Personal interests of leaders come first. The americans , WILL question US foreign policy , sooner or later. When they study carefuly the pros and cons of their current actions. At the same time , all it takes is a small decision from Saudi Arabia , stating that it will cut down its daily oil productions , or it will not accept US dollars in return for oil.... I would like to see how the US will react then !

As thread starter, I think you at least should have appended the revised body count to your message. While still 28 people too terrible, it does put the credibility of the numbers coming out of Lebanon in a bad light.

Anyway, I hope your post isn't as typical of the "Arab street" as you claim it is. It reeks of hypocracy, stupidity, and racism - I can't tell which is more blatant. Answer me these:
Where's the outrage from Arabs over the deliberate targetting, raping, and ethnic cleansing of non-Baggaras in Sudan by Sunni Baggaras? Where's the burning of Sunni/Shia effigies for the dail
y killings in Iraq, which make even the official death toll in Lebanon look like a minor accident? Where were the marching in the streets demanding that Syria gave up its occupation of Lebanon? It seems you people don't give a hoot if innocents are killed or oppressed, as long as the doings can't be traced back to the US or Israel.
Furthermore, since you're all so upset about the US doing nothing to calm the conflict, where's your outrage at the similarly non-Arab state Iran for fanning the flames? For initiating the conflict in the first place? Where's your anger at Hizbollah for launching rockets among civilians and threatening them to stay?
And why do you always trump the "fact" that the US is the only thing keeping your "incompetent" rulers in place? Jordan recieves $225 million a year from the US. That's not really a lot compared to your $3600 GNP, is it? The main reason why you have incompetent leaders is because you fail to engage in getting rid of them. You waste all your energy raging about the great satans (US, Israel, and cartoons), rather than channeling that energy into positive developments for your countries.
The blatant hypocracy and stupidity of the Arab street make it very very difficult to regard your anger with anything but contempt. And that's really too bad, for all you've got (or so it seems) is your pride and your rage. At least your main arguments ATM seems to be of the "if you (don't) do A, the mood in the Arab world will be worse"-kind. Your post is an excellent example of this.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Gotta love the way you think those Danish cartoons are somehow as significant as 9/11! But then, reading your posts you seem to have a blatent disregard for human life so I guess it figures huh?

Of course I cannot know, but I don't think that he was saying that the two events were equally significant. I guess he meant that the one showed the depth of the hatred, and the other showed how little it takes to stir it?

Trancaholic, thank you That was a great post that exposed the hypocrisy of the fundamental forces on the "arab street" or in Moslim countries in general.

This story continues to be fishy. Is the tail wagging the dog?

quote:

Hezbollywood? Evidence mounts that Qana collapse and deaths were staged By Reuven Koret July 31, 2006 It was to be a perfect Hollywood ending for Hezbollah. Just as the Israeli bombing of the village of Qana in 1996 brought a premature end to Israel's Operation "Grapes of Wrath," so too a sequel of Qana II could change, once and for all, the direction of Israel's current summer blockbuster, "Change of Direction." Ten years ago, world condemnation of an errant Israeli shell that hit a civilian compound forced then-PM Shimon Peres to curtail the offensive against terror bases. The setting was also perfect: Kana was again being used as a primary site for launching rockets against Israeli cities. The IDF reported that more than 150 rockets had been launched from Qana and its vicinity at Israeli civilians, wreaking destruction in Kiryat Shmona, Maalot, Nahariya and Haifa. It was only a matter of time before the Israeli Air Force would come for a visit, using pinpoint targeting of the sites used to launch rockets, Hezbollah logistical centers and weapon storage facilities. On the morning of July 30, according to the IDF, the air force came in three waves. In the first, between midnight and one in the morning, there was a strike at or near the building that eventually collapsed. Brent Sadler of CNN reports that the Israeli ordnance did not even hit the building but landed "20 or 30 meters" from the structure. There was a second strike at other targets far from the collapse building several hours later, and a third strike at around 7:30 in the morning. There too the nearest hit was some 460 meters away, according to the IDF. But first reports of a building collapse came only around 8 am. Thus there was an unexplained 7 to 8 hour gap between the time of the helicopter strike and the building collapse. Brigadier General Amir Eshel, Head of the Air Force Headquarters, in a press briefing, told journalists that "the attack on the structure in the Qana village took place between midnight and one in the morning. The gap between the timing of the collapse of the building and the time of the strike on it is unclear." Gen. Eshel appeared genuinely mystified by the gap in time. He "I'm saying this very carefully, because at this time I don't have a clue as to what the explanation could be for this gap," he added. The army's only explanation was that somehow there was unexploded Hezbollah ordnance in the building that only detonated much later. "It could be that inside the building, things that could eventually cause an explosion were being housed, things that we could not blow up in the attack, and maybe remained there, Brigadier General Eshel said. Eshel reported that as recently as two days ago, military intelligence reported the building area had been used by the terrorists for storage or firing of weapons. It was a bad place to cram dozens of women and children. There are other mysteries. The roof of the building was intact. Journalist Ben Wedeman of CNN noted that there was a larger crater next to the building, but observed that the building appeared not to have collapsed as a result of the Israeli strike. Why would the civilians who had supposedly taken shelter in the basement of the building not leave after the post-midnight attack? They just went back to sleep and had the bad luck to wait for the building to collapse in the morning? National Public Radio's correspondent reported that residents of that building had left and the victims were non-residents who chose to shelter in the building that night. They were "too poor" to leave the down, one resident told CNN's Wedeman. Who were these people? What we do know is that sometime after dawn a call went hour to journalists and rescue workers to come to the scene. And come they did, in droves. While Hezbollah and its apologists have been claiming that civilians could not freely flee the scene due to Israeli destruction of bridges and roads, the journalists and rescue teams from nearby Tyre had no problem getting there. Lebanese rescue teams did not start evacuating the building until the morning and only after the camera crews came. The absence of a real rescue effort was explained by saying that equipment was lacking. There were no scenes of live or injured people being extracted. There was little blood, CNN's Wedeman noted: all the victims, he concluded, appeared to have died while as they were sleeping -- sleeping, apparently, through thunderous Israeli air attacks. Rescue workers equipped with cameras were removing the bodies from the same opening in the collapsed structure. Journalists were not allowed near the collapsed building. Rescue workers filmed as they went carried the victims on the stretchers, occasionally flipping up the blankets so that cameras could show the faces and bodies of the dead. But Israelis steeled to scenes of carnage from Palestinian suicide bombings and Hezbollah rocket attack could not help but notice that these victims did not look like our victims. Their faces were ashen gray. While medical examination clearly is called for to arrive at a definitive dating and cause of their deaths, they do not appear to have died hours before. The bodies looked like they had been dead for days. Viewers can judge for themselves. But the accumulating evidence suggests another explanation for what happened at Kana. The scenario would be a setup in which the time between the initial Israeli bombing near the building and morning reports of its collapse would have been used to "plant" bodies killed in previous fighting -- reports in previous days indicated that nearby Tyre was used as a temporary morgue -- place them in the basement, and then engineer a "controlled demolition" to fake another Israeli attack. The well-documented use by Palestinians of this kind of faked footage -- from the alleged shooting of Mohammed Dura in Gaza, scenes from Jenin of "dead" victims falling off gurneys and then climbing back on -- have merited the creation of a new film genre called "Palliwood." There is increasing evidence that the Kana sequel is another episode in this genre, a variety which might be called Hezbollywood. The Hezbollah have evidently learned their craft well. The current suspension of Israeli military air activity is supposedly intended, among other things, to be used for the investigation of what really happened at Qana. It is to be hoped that there are real journalists on the scene, and unbiased medical examiners, who will have the courage and intelligence to sort out the anomalies and contradictions, and get to the buried truth of what happened. There is no shortage of victims in Lebanon and Israel these days. From this vantage point, at this time, it looks like in the case of Qana, the world's media was duped in a cruel and colossal hoax by a terror organization that knows no moral bounds in its exploitation of suffering and anti-Israel hatred. But, as usual, the only party expected to pay the full price will be Israelis. Yes, it would be a Hollywood ending for it all to end in Qana, exactly as it did a decade ago. But perfect endings, and perfect crimes, are rarely pulled off in real life. Israelis will not be able to investigate this claim directly. The question remains whether honest men and women of other nationalities will let this likely lie stand or press for the revelation of the improbable and inconvenient truth.

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic Anyway, I hope your post isn't as typical of the "Arab street" as you claim it is. It reeks of hypocracy, stupidity, and racism - I can't tell which is more blatant. Answer me these: Where's the outrage from Arabs over the deliberate targetting, raping, and ethnic cleansing of non-Baggaras in Sudan by Sunni Baggaras?

Don't know

quote:

Where's the burning of Sunni/Shia effigies for the killings in Iraq, which make even the official death toll in Lebanon look like a minor accident?

Will the burning of Sunni/Shia mosques do instead of effigies?

quote:

Where were the marching in the streets demanding that Syria gave up its occupation of Lebanon?

Here

quote:

It seems you people don't give a hoot if innocents are killed or oppressed, as long as the doings can't be traced back to the US or Israel.

Well bar your Sudanese example (of which I have no knowledge) I hope you can see from the examples above that is not entirely true. However, I can agree with your sentiments to an extent. Israel and America do provide these populations with a focal point for their anger at how crap their lives are in the Middle East. Governments and political groups have successfully deflected this anger away from themselves and onto America and Israel. However, Israel and America do create legitimate anger because of their actions in the Middle East. However, it is untrue to suggest that there is not anger directed at Middle Eastern governments as political Islam (the ideology of the Islamist terrorists) was born out of anger towards these oppressive regimes (and explains partly why these groups are so popular - they offer an alternative, much like socialism did during the Cold War). You can see examples in Egypt and Syria for example of outbursts of this anger where these groups are illegal and have been brutally oppressed because of their activities.

quote:

Furthermore, since you're all so upset about the US doing nothing to calm the conflict, where's your outrage at the similarly non-Arab state Iran for fanning the flames? For initiating the conflict in the first place? Where's your anger at Hizbollah for launching rockets among civilians and threatening them to stay?

I agree Hizballah should take as much responsibility as Israel (that's not to direct criticism away from Israel who imo have massively over reacted in a horrible way)

quote:

And why do you always trump the "fact" that the US is the only thing keeping your "incompetent" rulers in place? Jordan recieves $225 million a year from the US. That's not really a lot compared to your $3600 GNP, is it? The main reason why you have incompetent leaders is because you fail to engage in getting rid of them. You waste all your energy raging about the great satans (US, Israel, and cartoons), rather than channeling that energy into positive developments for your countries.

I know this whole post is not directed to me but I shall make a comment anyway. Regimes in the Middle East have been successful in holding onto power typically because they have gone through many coups. Regimes have therefore gone through a process of 'coup proofing' to ensure this does not happen again. Which means their respective militaries are extremely loyal to the ruling clan (usually because they are part of it or they get rewards from it). American help does contribute to the stability of these regimes too (especially Saudi Arabia and Egypt who I think the the next two biggest recipricants of American aid after Israel). I would also draw your attention to my comments above about Arabs "not doing anything" to oppose these regimes.

Damn, Shakka. I really hope you don't go down the wingnut tin foil hat road with Malkin, Assrocket, and the other Far Right bloggers. I must admit a real sense of irony about this whole incident is pretty damn painfully evident.

I was never one for the 9/11 conspiracy crap myself. As much of a dipshit I think Bush is, it was pretty damn far off the scope of reality for me to ever jump in that boat no matter what conspiratorial "evidence" comes about. I just couldn't do it.

But yet, this is exactly what we are beginning to see with you wingers out there with this whole Qana ordeal. I really hate to break the reality bubble to you, but you guys really have to get a fucking grip. And let's be clear about something too: Malkin's a fucking nutbag. Assrocket and the rest of Powerline folks are a very close second. Confederate Yankee, strata-sphere, and the rest of those folks that are going on and on about this, look, let them go and come back down to earth. It's a much safer place to accept the notion that this was accidental (and no, I'm not even close to believing Israel did this purposely, so no worries).

There is a rationale as to why the Israeli government has apologized for this incident:

quote:

Earlier, Olmert expressed deep regret for the harm inflicted on the civilians in Qana Sunday morning when at least 57 civilians - 37 of whom were children - were killed as the IAF fired missiles at a building in the southern Lebanese town. "I express deep regret, along with all of Israel and the IDF, for the civilian deaths in Qana," said Olmert. "Nothing could be further from our intentions and our interests than harming civilians - everyone understands that. When we do harm civilians, the whole world recognizes that it is an exceptional case that does not characterize us." http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...icle%2FShowFull

The Israelis were launching 80 fucking air raids on Qana overnight for fuck's sakes:

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/m...0/mideast.main/

80 raids. Their intention was clear - they wanted to level ALL buildings as much as possible to wipe out the cover for Hezbollah.

There is a reason why they admitted their mistakes:

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745185.html

There is a reason for statements like these:

quote:

"It now appears that the military had no information on rockets launched from the site of the building, or the presence of Hezbollah men at the time. The Israel Defense Forces had said after the deadly air-strike that many rockets had been launched from Qana. However, it changed its version on Monday." http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745185.html

The Israeli press and their government gets it. The reality-based community surrounding you gets it. Come back down to earth, please. I'm sorry but the evidence is painfully clear here. Regardless of what one thinks of the Israeli military strategy or of this war in general, we need to acknowledge such mistakes while understanding they are unfortunately a part of war.


Added in Edit: Additionally, Israeli Air Force chief of staff Amir Eshel had mentioned that the suggestion that Hezbollah had stored munitions in that building a "conspiracy theory":

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/744426.html

And the Israeli airforce mentioned that it has “no information on…the presence of Hezbollah men [in the area] at the time.”:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745185.html

Villagers in Qana mention that the wall and the roof of the building collapsed shortly after the bulding was struck. And reporters on the scene confirm that the building was hit from above:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/31/world/middleeast/31scene.html

Contrast that to O'Reilly's favorite tin foil hat wearer, Malkin:

http://hotair.com/archives/vent/2006/08/01/what-happened-in-qana/

Notice how she mentions how the pics of dead civilians “appear to be posed, not spontaneous action shots of an unfolding tragedy.”

Her evidence on this - a guy named Richard North from the blog EU Referendum. When pressed to support his assertion on this notion, North backs himself up with this heavy-hitting piece of evidence:

“All I have to go on is gut instinct.”:

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/worldopinionroundup/2006/08/the_qana_conspiracy_theory.html

This is just too damn good to pass up, Shakka. Come on back down. I know we've got a ton of differences, but I respect you too much to think you're goin' this far...........

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Last edited by MisterOpus1 on Aug-03-2006 at 18:06