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Yoepus
Neo-condimist
Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas
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What do you know? There is a Good side and a Bad side! Chose your side!
Very good point Izzy.
See people have gone accustom to Middle East conflict being the fault of both sides. This is due to the propagation of the Palestinian false information through the world for a period of upwards of 40 years. How do they do this? They get air time by making international terrorist incidents to have people explain their points for them… A recent trend has helped them even further; news agencies actually invite their own representatives to explain why they do such. They reply with complete false you have come to believe since you have been hearing it for so long and said.. “Ok I’m sure some of that must be true”. Well it isn’t!
There is a Good side and a Bad side to this conflict? What is Good or Bad? It is a judgment for morality. You can not be a Good Person and a Bad person at the same time. A country can not be Good and Bad at the same time. A person or country can be good at certain aspects and bad at certain aspects, but as a whole it is only good or bad. Using this basis for Good and Bad I will help prove to you the sides without even going into deep history, just the recent conflicts.
Israel is a democracy where people have a right to voice their own opinions criticize the government, and elect the official which represent them and their views. The government is socially reasonable and it’s army (or armed forces) are subservient to government. The government once again, represents the people. Israel has a free press, and a fair judicial system for its citizens. This is Good.
The free press in Israel is why you hear about what is happening in the middle east. If it was not for this ability, Israel would be no more relevant then the conflict in the Balkans that most of us are clueless about.. other then people died their. If it were not for Israel’s freedom of press the crisis would be no more relevant then the Congo thing in Africa right now. People would be clueless.. the Palestinian side would not even be voiced.
’Palestine’ is a totalitarian dictatorship. Although elections have been held in the past (once some 8 years ago), it was a one party ballot, you could chose no one but Mr. Arafat. This is since all opponents would have died if they would have run, or their families would have been slaughtered as is customary in Arab Kingdoms. A recent event where one of Arafat’s top advisors though this ‘violence thing wasn’t such a good idea’ resulted in Arafat pulling out his pistol and threatening the advisor with his life. Luckily for the advisor others restraint Arafat, but I am sure this Advisor won’t be questioning his wise policies anymore. Furthermore their army (the security forces + terrorists) are the government. You do what they say, you don’t do what you say or you die! Simple as that. You can hear about the ‘justice’ system in action almost every week in Palestine how they hang one another over anything from tribal conflict to alleged allegations and so on... One can kill another their with no fear of retaliation unless the guy you killed was part of some tribe or organization (read as Mafia). Palestinians do not have free press it is controlled by the Government (which is the dictator) which is the Army. Imagine trying to run against someone that controls 100% of the press. This is Bad.
The reasons you don’t hear about how Palestinians teach themselves in schools, or how they encourage their kids and children to march in the streets to try and get themselves killed.. or how they abuse their Ambulances to smuggle in arms and weapons, or perhaps the reasons you don’t hear about the ‘Palestinian Judiciary system’ is since they have a very restricted press. If you try and make a story on these things being an international journalist, not only is your life threatened... but your station will never be allowed access into the Palestinian territories again… and you lose a very good story, which loses ratings, and bottom line -money.
Ok but I had enough of that.. I could go on and on and on with these moral arguments saying Israel is a Good nation, and Palestine is a Bad ‘nation’. And I have not even mentioned how these ‘nations’ use their armies or their belief’s and fundamentals.
So I will try another argument here. You will here this a lot that Palestinians are a ‘People’. That the Jews and Palestinians are two people over one land. And this is where the conflict derives from. This is a very nice argument. But the correct reasoning for it would then have to be One People one Land. Ok so who are a people?
The Israelis are a people. They are Jews. They share an ethnical, religion, and historical background that spans more then 6000 years. They are indeed one of the most united oldest ethnical groups still on earth. Their claim for the territory of Israel are legitimated by their Historical significance to the people (forget about the god given right, you dig 5ft and you find an old Israeli castle/fort) and the fact that the land had belonged to the British before it became in independent nation. Britain got the land from the Ottomans under the Paris Peace Treaty with the responsibility that they get it only if they follow the Balfour declaration, which basically says the only reason Britain got this land anyway is so it could setup a Jewish homeland on it.
Ok now the Palestinians…. Hmm what are they? A people? Why what brins them together. Not all Arabs in Israel are Palestinians... after all you still have over a million content and happy Arab Israelis… which means Israeli citizens (or Arabs living in Israel with full rights) that are Arab. Ok so that rules out ethnicity, how about religion? No they seem to be primarily Christian and Muslims… hmm ok were running out of things, lets see Historical? No, they are just basically Arabs that got to this land during the British mandate from lots of different places with no real same history. And those that were there before have different histories as well. Ok ok.. I know the Palestinians must know what they are.. let me go check what they see about themselves. This is from the Palestinian Liberation Organization (read Arafat’s government) charter (read constitution):
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Article 1: Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation.
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Right so Palestinians are Arab. We go that down already.. but not all Arab’s are Palestinians so this doesn’t work. I like the bit about the Arab nation. I wish I knew where the Arab nation is... I can’t find it on my map.
| quote: |
Article 4: The Palestinian identity is a genuine, essential, and inherent characteristic; it is transmitted from parents to children. The Zionist occupation and the dispersal of the Palestinian Arab people, through the disasters which befell them, do not make them lose their Palestinian identity and their membership in the Palestinian community, nor do they negate them.
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Well behind all that Zionist Evil Occupier rhetoric we see some requirements for ‘membership’ in the ‘Palestinian people’ organization, which they assure me is a Genuine, 100% authentic Identity and essential. Ok I can get membership by being transmitted as a child to a parent. Ok good and I see that despite the fact that I fled my home in order to avoid the crossfire between that the Evil Zionist Occupier and my ‘Arab Nations’ armies when they tried to get them all to the sea does not disqualify me from joining up. OK finally we find it though;
| quote: |
The Palestinians are those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or have stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father - whether inside Palestine or outside it - is also a Palestinian. |
Ahh so that explains it. You have to be or know someone who lived in the Brisith Mandate before 1947. Ya if only that worked… this is like saying everyone who lived in the state of Rhode Island from Jan 1, 1956 to Jul 26, 1956 is part of the NeoRhodian people who have a legitimate right to self determination, and nullify that damn constitution and the evil occupation of those Imperialist Capitalist no Socialists.. no wait Colonist!!! I’m not making much sense here am I? Exactly my point.. they don’t seem to be either.
Ok so using that argument we have to say goodbye Palestinians, accept living in the peace loving democracy that Israel aspires to, or move.
Ok well enough of that for now. I would like to wait for your replies so I can make even stronger counter arguments against your untruths.
Yoepus
[i][Buy land, they have quit making it! /[i]
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 Mar-14-2002 21:36 
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist
Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas
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Reprint: History (but not revised) Dated 21 Feb 2002
Az this is for you. I wrote the following objective essay following the history of the jewish people for a previous debate on this topic. I have reposted it hear as the thread it was on was lost, and I think it is a service for all of you would actually for once in your lifes want to know what the whole conflict really is about. It is a pretty lengthy read so take your time.
Also Az, a note to the wise never get all your information from one source, no matter how crediable. The army does not do it, government do not do it, even the news does not do it (rarely but some do). If you want to learn the real truth, hear many people speak about the subject that actually know something about it. Not those who just regirgiated the News misinformation.
Ok anyway, below is the essay in its entirty as it was initally posted (for all those who read it before, skip it or read it again and enjoy (ya right)):
Hi.. I'm going to make a logical and rational argument in the following paragraphs against the Palestinian cause. If you are incapable of looking up sources, can't think, or have used to much ecstasy in the past which resulted in severe brain damage please refrain from reading this post as it might cause you to think and your head may explode. You have been warned.
Well all things need a start right? Well follow the Jewish people through history, after all where is their right for this so called land from anyhoo?
Well it all started around 10,000BC with the city of Jericho, the oldest city in the world.. then came Abraham and settled the region with his family (it was mainly sparse as not many humans were alive back then and their was tribal conflict.. their were no Palestinians there yet). Then their was a drought so some of them moved to Egypt.. then came Moses as and they returned. Then Babylon conquered them and destroyed their second temple, then the Jews returned (starting to see a pattern here?). It is worth nothing that ever since Abraham came to Israel their have always been Jews living there, though their numbers change dramatically with conquest and such. Lets pick up the pace a bit.. Rome comes severely oppresses the Jews and does not honor their unique culture and religion.. Jews rebel, romans win, Jews (again most but not all.. some remain always), Jews sold as slaves across the Roman Empire. Jews rebel again, this time they win and establish The Democratic Kingdom of New Israel under a king or two (see told you a lot of jews were left.. else they couldn't have rebelled). By this time the other lands nearby have regained
their might with the fall of Rome and can't stand the Democratic Kingdom of New Israel (as I recall the history books state they disliked the name.. as it made their Democratic Republics look bad so they wanted to change it). Some Jews are now spread out throughout the Arab world again.
Centuries pass (just 17 or so) and Jews have been the constant excuse and scapegoat of people everywhere wherever they were be it Europe, Asia, or Africa. Jews had to migrate between nations as they would change their policies from Jews like their mood swings. Throughout this time they would pray for the return of the Jewish people to their birth land, and for the revival of the temple (which the wailing wall in Jerusalem is the only remaining artifact of it). In 1870 Europe with a predominantly very hostile anti-Semitic populace, and an increasing number of Jews with good educations began discussing the reunion of the Jewish people to their homeland, this movement was called Zionism. Many began to move to Israel as situations got worse for them in Europe even as the conferences were taking place in Switzerland where the delegates tried to reach some agreement to peacefully resolve Israel as a homeland for the Jews. At this time Israel was 'occupied' by the Ottoman Empire. As WWI approached their were many Jewish collaborators that helped the British free all the lands of Transjordan (Modern Day Israel/Palestine and Jordan lands) and some parts
of Egypt.
At the end of the war many documents were signed by the victor ensuring the intended future of these lands (take note Victor sets claims to conquered, not conquered sets claims to victor.. this is how war works, read Geneva convention). The Jewish collaboration is an important note, as a generalization Arabs did not fight in WWI or WWII for their own freedom, most Arab indeed fought on the side of the Turkish (as noted by British Prime Minster David Llyod George). In WWII only Transjordan (containing the lands of Israel) sided with the Allies, the other countries (Iraq which was Pro-Nazi sided with Germany) waited till 1945 when the war was clearly over (and they had to do it if they wanted membership in the United Nations) to declare war on Germany. 30,000 Palestinian Jews fought against Nazi Germany.
..But wait lets go back to WWI as their were some very important documents signed (documents and treaties are ways countries create laws amongst each other, it is useless unless enforced) . 1917, The Balfour Declaration issued by the British, the heirs of the Palestinian Mandate after WWI;
| quote: | | "His Majesty's Government views with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country". |
I will
extend this to add a quote from the Peel Commission appointed by the British government to investigate the cause of the 1936 riots, | quote: | | "the field in which the Jewish National Home was to be established was understood at the time of the Balfour Declaration, to be the whole of Palestine, including Transjordan" (that means Israel AND Jordan) |
. So what does this all mean? Let me put it into a context you might better understand. The American Revolutionary war right? This would be like the British writing the Declaration of Independence for the Americans and telling them they could have an independent country in ALL OF NORTH AMERICA. And Benjamin Franklin would say, "Ahh we don't want all of it.. just these few 13 colonies". Pretty remarkable huh? The Mandate was formalized by 52 governments at the League of Nations on July 24, 1922.
At and before this time Israel was nothing, a wasteland.. it hadn't been an important place since the Crusades. Jerusalem was neglected and was never a capital, or even a provincial capital of any nation, state, or province. Mark Twain who visited Palestine in 1867 described Israel as | quote: | | "[a] desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to the weeds-a silent mournful expanse....A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action.... We never saw a human being on the whole route... There was hardly a tree shrub (or shrubbery -my edit) anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of the worthless soil, had almost deserted the country". |
This is
the same Mark Twain that said "Suppose you were an idiot... And suppose you were a member of Congress ... But I repeat myself." He's a smart guy listen to him. Israel was nothing but a wasteland either barren or full of marshes. Before the 1920s there was not many people living in Palestine. The British helped make it a better place, more then half a million Arabs therefore moved to Palestine between 1922 and 1947, more then 120% increase in their population. Jewish population was increasing put was doing so slowly. Why? The British restricted Jewish migration to Israel severely, but did little to curb Arab migration, and illegal Arab migration into Israel. During this time Jews who came to Israel did not steal Arab land. In fact they went out of their way to accommodate the Arabs in the land, knowing it would be better to live with them instead of
against them (especially since they were very weak at this time). They bought most their land and went out of their way not to displace Arabs from land they bought (as most landowners won't dear live in the desolation that was Israel.. they were usually wealthy men in Cairo, Beirut, or Damascus). They sought land that was largely uncultivated, swampy, cheap, and most important, without tenants. Only after they had bought all the available land they began to buy the cultivated land. Many Arabs were interested in selling as they were interested in moving to coastal towns or to get some cash to invest in the dot.citrus industry boom. The Jews usually even compensated the tenants of these lands although they were not legally bound to pay says John Hope Simpson in 1930. A British survey conducted by Lewis French in 1931 to evaluate the landlessness of Arabs who had been 'dispossessed'. It received more then 3000 applications, of which all but 600 were ruled invalid as they were indeed not landless. 100 of these accepted the Governments offer for a plot of land somewhere else. Even Transjordan's King Abdullah wrote in his memoirs wrote; [quote]"It is made quite clear to all, both by the map drawn up by the Simpson Commission and by another compiled by the Peel Commission, that the Arabs are as prodigal as in selling their land as they are in useless wailing and weeping"[quote]. By 1947 Jews had holdings to about 463,000 acres in Palestine. An analysis of land purchases from 1880 to 1948 actually shows that 73% of land purchased by the Jews came from large land owners, some including the mayors of Gaza, Jerusalem, and Jaffa.
As early as 1921 the arabs, organized by Haj Amin el-Husseini used small groups of suicide bombers against the Jews in hopes of terrorizing them into leaving Palestine. An internal conflict between the Jews and 'Palestinians' had already been existent throughout this time, but was gaining intensity as the British turned a blind eye towards both directions, while restricting the Jews more severely.
As WWII came to and end the magnitude of the Holocaust became know to the world of then (I believe many of you can not comprehend this magnitude).
This drove world public support for a final solution to the question of Palestine, as a refuge and sanctuary for the "Final Solution" of Hitler’s in a homeland of their own. A commission was established to decide the manner, it consisted of delegates of 7 nations who recommended the establishment of two separate states, Jewish and Arab, to be joined by economic union, with Jerusalem as an internationalized enclave. It is also wise to state that the Peel Commission of 1937 concluded the only logical solution to resolving the contradictory aspirations of the Jews and
Palestinians was a creation of two states. The Arabs rejected this plan because it forced them to accept the creation of a Jewish state, which required some Palestinians to live under a Jewish domain. The Zionist refused the plan as well as according to the Peel Plan's boundaries they would have been confined to a little more then 1,900 out of the 10,3000 square miles remaining of Palestinian (transjordan, the other 80% was given back to an Arab monarch in reward for some support in WWII). However it is also important to note, that although the Zionist refused the plan they decided to continue to negotiate with the British while the Arabs refused to consider and compromises.
As the 1947 Partition plan became a reality it was clear the Arabs were preparing themselves for an armed conflict. Almost immediately after the UN announced the partition on November 29, 1947 the Arabs prepared for an assault which they began 9 January 1948. From April 1, the Israeli forces began to take the initiative in the weeks till Israeli's independence day May 14th. They did this against all odds, with disadvantages in organization, numbers, and weapons. Then after the declaration of Independence Israel beat off the combined forces of Arab armies from 5 different countries. The Arabs had clearly opted for an 'all for nothing' strategy with Israel. During this time many Arabs fled the land in fear of war, many were also told to evacuate by scouts of the advancing Arab armies. Many Arabs chose to flee Israel in face of the coming war that was decided to take place by other Arabs. Some chose to stay, some of those were forced to move, others were allowed to stay in the backdrop of the 1948 war.
After the war Israel had made little territorial gains beyond those that were envisioned to be partitioned to her. Despite the humiliating defeat the Arabs had not conceded the war like mode.
In the following years, when Israel had become a recognized country of its own, so called 'Palestinian territories' were under illegal control by the Jordanian and Egyptian regimes. During this time their was no movement from the Palestinians for a country or their right for self-determination. Also the refugees that fled for their safety during the war were not integrated into the other Arab countries to help them get their lives back together. Instead they were kept in slums called Refugee camps incited with hate. Apparently the 'Arab Brotherhood' is not as strong as they would like to have believed. In comparison more then 200,000 Jews from many Arab countries who faced severe persecution to the point of death were accepted into Israeli society and became productive contributing members to the society in less then a generation.
In the following was 1956, 1967 Israel had launched first assault preemptive-strikes after repeated provocation and imminent break of war from its Arab neighbors. The had accomplished very recognizable territorial gains in the face of an attack from all its Arab neighbors. They had finally gained access to Eastern Jerusalem and the wailing wall a site Jews had preyed to reach for centuries and were prevented from doing so when the area came under rule by the Jordanians. They had captured most of the West Bank, Gaza, Sinai, and the Golan Heights. According to the laws of War territorial acquisitions are fair game. They serve as bargaining chips in the game of diplomacy that usually follows after for the peace agreement.
Prior to the 1967 war before Israel had conquered the West Bank and Gaza, The PLO was formed. This organization headed by Yasser Arafat aimed to Liberate Palestine. But from who? He was content with the rule under Jordan, he must have meant to Liberate Palestine of it's Zionist oppressor.. riding all of Palestine of Jews. Before and during 1967 many incursion and terrorist actions were made from Jordanian (read West Bank) and Egyptian positions into Israel. Artillery was constantly being fired across the border onto Israeli settlements. Israel faced extreme odds with the small ill-equipped army against the Soviet Armies of it's Arab neighbors, it is amazing it had accomplished such a victory. A further war in 1973 reinforced Arab hatred for an aspiring Jewish state as all Forces of it's Arab neighbors conspired for a sneak attack against Israel to wipe it, off the face of the map for good. They chose the Holiest day of the year for the Jews, Yom Kippur. Remarkable against all odds Israel was able to foil this attack once more, although only modest territorial gains were made. In both 1967 and 1973 Israel refrained from marching into Cairo, Damascus, or Amman showing that their intentions were indeed not to dismantle or destroy for good their Arab neighbors.
Since the wars Israel had made large attempts to accommodate Arabs in the West Bank in Gaza under their control. These territories were never Annexed by Israel as it understood it these lands belong to another self-determined people. These territories never belonged to any country, and were in theory supposed to belong to a nation which never existed due to the UN partition of 1948. So in fact they may be considered Occupied Occupied.. free for all territories.
Israel has shown its willingness to give up its conquered land for peace as seen by the Camp-David peace process which brought peace finally between Israel and Egypt. Further Israel has shown its determination for peace by entering into a mutually-beneficial peace treaty with it's other Neighbor Jordan. Still throughout these times despite the fact that Israel had provided people under the Occuppided, Occuppied territories with clean water, sewage, roads, schools, and many other amenities unheard of their today under their supposed 'self-rule', the Palestinians have launched numerous terrorist, guerilla, and murderous campaigns aimed primarily at defenseless civilians. The Palestinians have shown a willingness for piece but are yet to prove it in their actions, Israel already has.
After an intensified uprising in these territories, Israel signed the Oslo accords in the early 90s, whereby Israel ensured the Palestinian an autonomy with resolution from both sides to settle the debate regarding the Palestinian issue, and all other issues that may arise diplomatically and through peaceful means and mediation only. Israel donated thousands of small arms to the Palestinian Authority so they may keep fringe groups from disrupting the peace and preserving the force of law in their Autonomy.
Despite these efforts Arafat and the Palestinians violated the accords by using terrorism and violence in hopes to achieve a political objective for Israel. This included horrific unimaginable attacks against innocent Israeli civilians. Throughout the decade of the 90s the Israeli people, being of a democracy elected several different leaders each with their unique approach to the peace trouble. Arafat was unable to make a permanent peace with former Prime Minister Rabin, or his successor Shimon Peres who was of a like mind. Nethanyua who followed, was unwilling to compromise Israeli's security for anything but a complete peace. Ehud Barak who followed him compromised Israeli's security in a desperate attempt to reach and accommodate a fair and agreeable peace treatry. His generous peace treaty ensuring the Palestinians receive 97% of their land and accept Jerusalem as their capital was not only rejected by the Palestinian but was rejected with no realistic counter-proposal. Instead the Palestinians intensified violence and terrorism in a means to reach their political objectives. Sharon was elect due to his hardliner policy similar to that of Nethyahu, not compromising security for peace, where we reach our current situation today. In the past week the Palestinians have shown a desire to intensify the violence and terrorism even to a higher level then it has before.
A logical man can conclude that since the Israel has tried to achieve peace and has changed their leadership many times in hopes of achieving it without success, the fault must lie on the Palestinian side as their leader has stayed a constant- Arafat. This is where ALL the Palestinian people have association to the blame and guilt. They have failed to change their leadership in hopes of reaching a realistic peace treaty with Israel. UN Resolution 242 calls for the Palestinians right to 'Self-Determination' but this has not been achieved by the Palestinians as they may elect only one leader, Arafat runs a dictatorship and a terror regime amongst his own people as well as against the people of Israel. This can
not be argued in any sense of the words.
It is apparent that the problem lies with Arafat, and the Palestinians inability to change their leadership to reflect their proper views, or god forbid if he is representative of general Palestinian views this is a weaker sign as the only inevitable resolution to the problem would be violence. And yes Violence (notably war) does solve problems, if you are in doubt of this, please check out any history book in your local library. If this be a truth Israel has only one chance for its survival, a step it has never dared to do before, the forced relocation of an entire people.
Some of you out their might not understand the intensity of this conflict. Well imagine yourself in your beloved country, your beloved country is on the brink of war this very day. Your country might stand a chance against incursions every now and then. Your enemy has nothing to lose, they will continue incursions as long as they'd like, one day they are bound to win. One successful incursion means the doom of your country for ever and the ending of your life. You have the power to dismantle your opponents once and for all to prevent further incursions yet chose not to. Choosing not to risks your life and all those of your beloved countrymen. Now show me another country with such restraint in the world, as I can only think of one.
PHEW!!! What a long essay.. well hope you learned something.. My opinion is stated more in the end then the beginning in hopes of preserving historical truth. Since I sort of didn't want to get into the detail of post 1948 else that would take forever. If you guys want though I can highlight the history since then and the major wars.. Interesting statistics too like the sizes of the armies during the war highlighting the great odds against Israel.
Well hope you guys actually take the time to read through it...
Yoepus
"did you know Texas A&M genetically engineered maroon colored carrots"
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Mar-14-2002 21:42
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Izzy
Virtue & Vice
Registered: Apr 2001
Location: TX TA #5
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| quote: | Originally posted by Az
*Jim Royle Style* My Arse
If anyone has a moral highground at all it's the palestinians, they've been removed from their homes (that have been theirs for over a 1000 years) persecuted by the israelis, given a piece of shit for land and then even moved out of that. They were offered a fragment of the country in 1948, when a few years beforehand they had the ENTIRE country, so I'm not surprised they said no and carried on fighting. They would have got the country back as well if it's wasn't for britain and the US sticking our fat asses in, for feeling guilty for what we allowed to happen in the holocaust. So don't say that the israelis have a moral highground.
And before you have go at me for bein a dodgy hamas al queda type geezer I get this information from my Israeli General Studies Teacher, who's the only person I've ever heard talk about the situation objectively
so theres my 802 cents  |
ok then correct me if im wrong but you think that terrorism is justified in this case? you really think that displacing innocent civilians (which isnt the case) is moraly worse than killing innocent civilians? excuse me but i really dont see where you're coming from on that one.
now let me go to the your arguement that says that in 1948 the palestinian land was taken by israelis.
prior to 1948 the area known as palestine was under british mandate. when the british decided to leave the UN established a "Special Commision On Palestine (UNSCOP) to devise a solution. delegates from 11 countries went to figure out what could be done. they found there was a conflicting national aspirations for the jews and arabs and set up a partition plan to create two seprate country. no the palestians werent offered a "piece of shit for land" as you put it so nicely. the partion plan were based soley on demographics of the area and ownership of the land, is it our fault that some arabs sold us their land giving us full property rights to the place? after the palestinians regected this plan.... war of independence... yadda yadda... and if you look at the bourders of isreal after that war they look almost identical to the partition plan. but where is the palestinian country you ask? well there was none, their greedy neighbours took the land... west bank was jordan's and gaza went to egypt. let me add also that there were and still are palestinians living within isreal. so saying that we forced them to leave is rubbish.... anyways i gotta go to a meeting real quick, ill write agian when i come back.
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If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.
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Mar-14-2002 21:45 
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