this is a good thing. now we can sit down and talk and really get a peaceful process going on. Like Pakistan and India did.

quote:

Originally posted by metalgearsolid this is a good thing. now we can sit down and talk and really get a peaceful process going on. Like Pakistan and India did.

You have no idea what can happen if an extremist takes the control of the weapon, or that country ... he will not think good before launching these terrible weapons, he will not care for his life.

These extremists are willing to kill themselves in the name of their goals. They are waiting for an opportunity to send the world into a nuclear war, and then they think God or Allah or whatever will help them.

If they blew themselves up, or "hijacked" the planes or whatever, think what they can and will do if they have REAL weapons at their disposal.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

Oh, and I dont want to give any good word for the oppressive North Korean regime - why do they need this nuclear force? Their missiles can barely outreach Japan (as shown in recent missile launches). What are they going to aim for - blue whales? Their people are starving, poor, and in massive need of help.

West gives some money to help these poor people. And the regime was warned against testing the nukes with harsh sanctions and cutting off aid. Pyongyang (whatever the name) ignored and proceeded with the testing. WHAT IS IT GOING TO ACHIEVE? How can they protect themselves with nukes when the aid will be cut off?

Ogh, the stupidity ... I feel sorry for their people ...

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r True, your foreign policy is now etched in stone as to what it failed to do; NK's nuclear test now commemorates that. However, I believe it was NK's shear determination more so than anyone's lack of leadership in dealing with them and their aspirations to join the Nuclear Club. The U.S. lack of fortitude in this matter isn't alone in the blame; the U.N. Security counsel and NK's neighbors are also showing their ineptness in dealing with Kim. This fault is exasperated when we think of the state that NK is in overall when they can't even feed their own people AND with sanctions... I guess the next step is to see how kookie Kim gets now that he just grew a couple of feet...

Agreed.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo god do read what you type? this ball got rolling over a decade ago. you act like this shit happens in some American vacuum. i guess it helps your partisaned exclusive world view that cant see past the American Presidential elections of 2000. it must suck soooo bad!

Okay Dittohead, you can go tell your friends that you gave your "told off a librul" speech now. Hope you feelin' better, and glad to be of service. I'll address this more below.

quote:

China doesn't carry any of the blame do they?, i mean, if you want to incite blame. if that helps you sleep, then lets talk about Russia. lets talk about the regional players in this game because thats all Kim Jong Il really cares about. his influence over the region.

China and Russia carry a huge fucking blame for their complacency. Which reminds me, what the fuck has our President done in regards to any of these other players? You want me to live outside of the "American vacuum"? Is that a fucking joke coming from someone who believes the U.S.A is the fucking center of the universe, the place where we spread freedom and our lovely version of "democracy" by invading and toppling hapless regimes while blissfully ignoring other murderous and genocidal dictators and countries?

I was addressing America and Bush for the sole purpose that he can and should have taken the lead on this years ago. Of course all over your airwaves and blogs the same fucking shananigans are taking place - a crisis comes about, therefore it's Clinton's fault. Seriously Q, who the fuck truly lives in a vacuum on these international crisis issues? This is beyond the pot calling the kettle black.

And while you're at it, could you please explain why Bush turned a blind eye to our beloved "ally", Pakistan, while they happily armed N. Korea with nuke material in the first place? And then please tell me why he threw N. Korea in the Axis of Evil limelight while shunning that very light from Pakistan and India for their noncompliant activities?

But then again, Bush wasn't ever truly very well educated with too many international problems in his own right:

quote:

George W. pulled Bandar aside. "Bandar, I guess you're the best asshole who knows about the world. Explain to me one thing." "Governor, what is it?" "Why should I care about North Korea?" Bandar said he didn't really know. It was one of the few countries that he did not work on for King Fahd. "I get these briefings on all parts of the world," Bush said, "and everybody is talking to me about North Korea." "I'll tell you what, Governor," Bandar said. "One reason should make you care about North Korea." "All right, smart alek," Bush said, "tell me." "The 38,000 American troops right on the border." ..."If nothing else counts, this counts. One shot across the border and you lose half these people immediately. You lose 15,000 Americans in a chemical or biological or even regular attack. The United State of America is at war instantly." "Hmmm," Bush said. "I wish those assholes would put things just point-blank to me. I get half a book telling me about the history of North Korea." "Now I tell you another answer to that. You don't want to care about North Korea anymore?" Bandar asked. The Saudis wanted America to focus on the Middle East and not get drawn into a conflict in East Asia. "I didn't say that," Bush replied. "But if you don't, you withdrawl those troops back. Then it becomes a local conflict. Then you have the whole time to decide, 'Should I get involved? Not involved?' Etc." At that moment, Colin Powell approached. "Colin," Bush said, "come here. Bandar and I were shooting the bull, just two fighter pilots shooting the bull." He didn't mention the topic. "Mr. Governor," Bandar said, "General Powell is almost a fighter pilot. He can shoot the bull almost as good as us." Bob Woodward State of Denial 2006

But no, you keep blaming Clinton as always, even though there was absolutely NO evidence that Pyongyang had added any plutonium stockpiles while Clinton was in office, AND had IAEA inspectors on the ground to boot:

http://democrats.senate.gov/pdfs/NS...ds_July2005.pdf

But hey, IAEA isn't exactly one of Bush's favorite gangs anyway, so who cares, right?

quote:

i haven't heard one voice of your party say anything about this. you have no answers either, so shut the hell up.

And who the fuck listens to the minority party anyway? YOU turdbags have been in charge for the past 5 years. YOU GOPers have had all the cards as our elected leaders in charge to take the reigns and lead the way towards peace and diplomacy.

Oh, but I forget, it's the Democrats' faults for not saying anything. Got it, chief. How silly of me to forget how much the Dems. could have actually done a god damn fucking thing about, oh, ANYTHING during Bush's regime.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium LOL, why? Did Japanese bomb San Francisco, Los Angeles? Did Americans use dialogue and political compromise? No, they were chickens and instead of invading the Japanese tightly-populated islands where they were surely going to get hit hard, they decided to nuke the innocent civilians, ATTACKING MEGAPOLISES WITH NUCLEAR WARHEADS, KILLING HUNDREDS OF THOUSANS OF INNOCENT CIVILIANS. Yeah, the circumstances of the use were OK (sarcasm). USA was in dead end and had no choice but to launch not JUST ONE, BUT TWO!!!! NUKES ... WASNT ONE ENOUGH!!!! AND THEY LAUNCHED THE SECOND NUKE WITHIN DAYS ... YEAH, SURE, yeah, its ok to kill another couple hundred thousand innocent civilians just to make a greater effect. I bet if Soviets werent going to receive nuclear technology from communist spies in the Manhattan Project, the Americans would have dropped a nuke or two on Soviet Union and forced them to accept their terms too. Pretty reasonable conclusion from my part ...

So apparently you're forgetting everything the Japanese did to EVERYONE ELSE in and around the region then besides Pearl Harbor.
Convenient argument.
Not buying it.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 China and Russia carry a huge fucking blame for their complacency. Which reminds me, what the fuck has our President done in regards to any of these other players?

he brought them to the table for 6 way talks and bi-lateral talks under the multi-lateral framework. pyongyang re-nigged. they always re-nig.

quote:

And while you're at it, could you please explain why Bush turned a blind eye to our beloved "ally", Pakistan, while they happily armed N. Korea with nuke material in the first place? And then please tell me why he threw N. Korea in the Axis of Evil limelight while shunning that very light from Pakistan and India for their noncompliant activities?

heres where you fundamentally misunderstand what is going on. Pakistan didn't want anything from anybody. thats why they kept their shit secret. the only way we knew that Pakistan tested a weapon was...after they tested a weapon. they didn't advertise shit. why? because they didn't want anything. NoKo wants something. Kim Jong Il knows what to do to get it.

i mean do you honestly think we [Bush Clinton] could have done anything diplomatically to stop his ballistic missile program or his plutonium enrichment program or his nuclear bomb program or his weaponized nuc/bomb/missile program? no. nothing short of giving him $billions in unmarked 20's and season tickets to Fenway would have stopped him.

as a matter of fact, i believe that his announcement and subsequent test was an indication that the pressure put on by our State dept. is working. why? because he's had nukes for at least 3 yrs.!

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r So apparently you're forgetting everything the Japanese did to EVERYONE ELSE in and around the region then besides Pearl Harbor. Convenient argument. Not buying it.

That's true, they totaly brutalized the Chinese. But I don't see why large numbers of Japanese civilians should pay for it with their lives (not to mention the after affects still being felt in the areas affected by radiation), or how that's morally justifiable, especially considering that they didn't have a democratic/representative form of Government, atleast that is my understand. Even if they did, I guess it could be argued, but I still don't fully agree with it, especially since there's no distinction between supporters/opponents of a regime/policy when you freakin' nuke someone.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z That's true, they totaly brutalized the Chinese. But I don't see why large numbers of Japanese civilians should pay for it with their lives (not to mention the after affects still being felt in the areas affected by radiation), or how that's morally justifiable, especially considering that they didn't have a democratic/representative form of Government, atleast that is my understand. Even if they did, I guess it could be argued, but I still don't fully agree with it, especially since there's no distinction between supporters/opponents of a regime/policy when you freakin' nuke someone.

Because that's what happens in total war when you have to make decisions that are not black or white. If I had to make the decision between Operation Coronet and dropping the bomb I would not hesitate for a minute. But really this is digressing from what should be discussed in this topic.

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Retro ...

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo he brought them to the table for 6 way talks and bi-lateral talks under the multi-lateral framework. pyongyang re-nigged. they always re-nig.

And here's where I felt this administration has gone wrong ... what did they do once Pyongyang re-nigged? Nothing. N. Korea has been such a low priority for this administration that I feel that it's no surprise that what happened happened. Has their been a N. Korean plan/strategy? Bush has had the whitehouse and congress for the past 6 years, somebody tell me what the plan was, why it failed, and what the new plan that will succeed is. Don't give me any ... but but but democrats! arguments ... they're not in power.

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Retro ...

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z That's true, they totaly brutalized the Chinese. But I don't see why large numbers of Japanese civilians should pay for it with their lives (not to mention the after affects still being felt in the areas affected by radiation), or how that's morally justifiable, especially considering that they didn't have a democratic/representative form of Government, atleast that is my understand. Even if they did, I guess it could be argued, but I still don't fully agree with it, especially since there's no distinction between supporters/opponents of a regime/policy when you freakin' nuke someone.

That argument certainly didn't stop the Germans from trying to carpet bomb the UK back to the Stone Age...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by occrider And here's where I felt this administration has gone wrong ... what did they do once Pyongyang re-nigged? Nothing.

ok, who's they? and what are we talking about exactly? is it the ballistic missile testing? plutonium? uranium enrichment? he's taken advantage of every diplomatic engagement on every subject imaginable for the last going on two decades.

i don't give a f**k about Democrats. they're stupid and they clearly aren't the answer. they can't be the answer. thats why i'm not gonna bring them into the dicussion or revise history like most Democrats enjoy doing when it comes to failed policy.