quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Well it's not such a crazy suggesion you know, espeically considering it wasn't entirely serious (although I was half serious). Look at all the developments that have taken place since 9-11. The Patriot Act, the Detainee Bill, the Military Commision Act of 2006, a war of agression (Iraq), another one possibly coming very soon against Iran, illegal spying, indefinite detention and torture without any evidence (including US citizens), the general loss of liberty and privacy, and other things I can't recall at the moment. This administration is abosolutely nuts; it's considers itself to be above the law, the constituion & Bill of Rights, international law, the Geneva convention, and has already fought one war of agression with another one probably coming very soon. But I don't think any of that makes a difference to alot of you, and indicates nothing whatsoever. Well, we'll find out pretty soon in most probability and it'll be way to late by that time. And I guess I won't be around to say "I told you so!"

yeah this is one side of the story and i believe that the truth is even worst than that sadly... but on the other hand there is a serious problem of some groups of radical muslims that don't believe in what you and i believe. - sadly these people have taken themselves the right to "understand" the Kuran as they want and in the name of "god" they believe everything is accepted

im not saying all or even most of muslims like that - it would be a lie to say that. but actions must be taken against the radical groups. wether the actions dealt on this topic are going way too far or not well thats a good question i don't know the answer to. but i think other solutions are needed.
at the end of the day i try to think about the people who are just like me, wants to live their life and never did anything wrong - is it ok to just spy on them aswell?

___________________
What makes a good tune is having a source of passion to its creation

quote:

Originally posted by Glenn-Holmes yeah this is one side of the story and i believe that the truth is even worst than that sadly... but on the other hand there is a serious problem of some groups of radical muslims that don't believe in what you and i believe. - sadly these people have taken themselves the right to "understand" the Kuran as they want and in the name of "god" they believe everything is accepted im not saying all or even most of muslims like that - it would be a lie to say that.

That's cool man, I understand you're not generalizing.

quote:

Originally posted by Glenn-Holmes but actions must be taken against the radical groups. wether the actions dealt on this topic are going way too far or not well thats a good question i don't know the answer to. but i think other solutions are needed. at the end of the day i try to think about the people who are just like me, wants to live their life and never did anything wrong - is it ok to just spy on them aswell?

I'm all for minimizing the threat of terrorism. The simplest way to do that is not pursue policies that will lead to an escalation of it and radicalize more and more people in the Middle East in the first place. That's a first step, and a very importnat one.

Secondly, I have no problem with spying/wiretapping etc as long as it's done legitimately and with a warrant issued by the court. That means that the feds need to have probable cause. We have laws for a reason. This administration conduct and modus operandi is a blatant violation of the Constituion & Bill of Rights, and it's gone even as far as to get bills passed that give them power and authority that are also blatant violations of the them. And that's only on a domestic level. After the Detainee Bill and Military Commision Act of 2006, they've given themselves carte blanche to disregard international law, human rights, and the geneva convension, not that they weren't doing it before.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Last edited by shaolin_Z on Oct-16-2006 at 19:09

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z I'm all for minimizing the threat of terrorism. The simplest way to do that is not pursue policies that will lead to an escalation of it and radicalize more and more people in the Middle East in the first place. That's a first step, and a very importnat one.

So appease, turn a blind eye, ignore or whatever you want to call it until the problem is too big to ignore and you wake up one Tuedsay morning to watch a few close friends get killed by an airplane flying into their morning meeting. Oh yeah--I forgot--you think George Bush did that.

This war on islamic facism is going to be fought sooner or later. I'd much prefer it to be fought sooner, and before the other side gets their hands on more advanced weapons and can fortify their position or shift the battlefield closer to my home. Terrorism did not start in 2001.

Why don't you tell me which policies you personally advocate rather than telling me which policies you disagree with. It seems like any and everything is incendiary in the radical muslim world these days. Wanna convert to Christianity? You might be killed. Cartoons that portray radical islam for what it is? Kill. The pope opened his mouth and dared speak the truth? He should be killed too. Anyone that has a problem with radical islam must be eliminated--that is their MO. You can recognize it for what it is or you can continually try to put lipstick on a pig and ignore the bigger picture.

How do you suggest minimizing the threat? Should we send them all care packages with free Quarans and a bag of gummy bears? Reward defiance. Yeah--that has a history of working.

Here's the article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/...1923324,00.html

I think the phrase "Asian-looking" may have been taken out of context when it was mentioned in the examples at the bottom of the article. I doubt very much whether any policy would reccommend targeting "Asian-looking" people, rather it's reccommending lecturers keep an ear out for hints of radical Islam.

Personally, I've always been suspicious of anyone who didn't indulge in copious amounts of binge drinking whilst at uni, I mean, if you go to uni to actually learn anything chances are you're up to no good

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z That's cool man, I understand you're not generalizing. I'm all for minimizing the threat of terrorism. The simplest way to do that is not pursue policies that will lead to an escalation of it and radicalize more and more people in the Middle East in the first place. That's a first step, and a very importnat one.

Appeasement simply doesn't work.
If it did, we wouldn't need a prison system and who the hell needs cops??
There has to be punishment and laws to protect the innocent.
If it happens that certain groups are the source of problems and need to be monitored then so be it but let's not deny what exactly is going on either.

quote:

Secondly, I have no problem with spying/wiretapping etc as long as it's done legitimately and with a warrant issued by the court. That means that the feds need to have probable cause. We have laws for a reason. This administration conduct and modus operandi is a blatant violation of the Constituion & Bill of Rights, and it's gone even as far as to get bills passed that give them power and authority that are also blatant violations of the them. And that's only on a domestic level. After the Detainee Bill and Military Commision Act of 2006, they've given themselves carte blanche to disregard international law, human rights, and the geneva convension, not that they weren't doing it before.

The government is going to do what it needs to do to protect it's people.
It's certainly not going to advertise to terrorists as to the hows and whys just to get circumnavigated; what would be the point.
I don't necessarily agree with everything either, but for my own safety, I'm willing to caught up a few liberties to remain safe.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Last edited by Fir3start3r on Oct-16-2006 at 23:45

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Appeasement simply doesn't work. If it did, we wouldn't need a prison system and who the hell needs cops?? There has to be punishment and laws to protect the innocent. If it happens that certain groups are the source of problems and need to be monitored then so be it but let's not deny what exactly is going on either.

Has it ever occurred to you that eliminating the root of the problem by targeting the situations that trigger them such as poverty, discrimination, war, et.. would be a more effective way of resolving said situations than using methods that increase the situations that trigger terrorism in the first place and in the end only increase terrorist activity instead of decreasing it?

___________________
Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

quote:

Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka So appease, turn a blind eye, ignore or whatever you want to call it until the problem is too big to ignore and you wake up one Tuedsay morning to watch a few close friends get killed by an airplane flying into their morning meeting. Oh yeah--I forgot--you think George Bush did that.

Engaging in warfare and invasion of a country that had nothing to do with 9-11 is not appeasement, it's ouright agression, and a very effective way of ensuring an escalation in terrorism. Killing 600,000+ civilian is appeasment? Illegal detainment and torture is appeasement? Raping wives, sodomizing kids with glowsticks dripped in battery acid in front of their parents, naked pyramids, boiling people alive in water, and setting loose attack dogs on people is appeasement? You can find most of this info in a mainstream American publication like the NYTimes. Opus was the first one to post articles containing majority of the these torture "techniques," I I recall correctly.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka This war on islamic facism is going to be fought sooner or later. I'd much prefer it to be fought sooner, and before the other side gets their hands on more advanced weapons and can fortify their position or shift the battlefield closer to my home. Terrorism did not start in 2001. Why don't you tell me which policies you personally advocate rather than telling me which policies you disagree with. It seems like any and everything is incendiary in the radical muslim world these days. Wanna convert to Christianity? You might be killed. Cartoons that portray radical islam for what it is? Kill. The pope opened his mouth and dared speak the truth? He should be killed too. Anyone that has a problem with radical islam must be eliminated--that is their MO. You can recognize it for what it is or you can continually try to put lipstick on a pig and ignore the bigger picture.

That's right, it didn't start in 2001. US state sponsored terrorism started decades ago. Even if you with the official 9-11 story, it was nothing more than "blowback" to use one of the CIAs own term. Let's not forget who funded and trained al-Quaeda. Radicaliazation and terrorism is a consequence of US foreigh policy. And the Bush Administrations policies are only making it worse, and any more attacks, anywhere, will be the predictable consequences of their actions. So you have them to thank for that.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka How do you suggest minimizing the threat? Should we send them all care packages with free Quarans and a bag of gummy bears? Reward defiance. Yeah--that has a history of working.

How about not funding, training, and organzing these groups in the first place? So the alternative to support for opressive and brutal regimes, overthrowing democraticaly elected governments, and bombing countries to kindgdom come is a bag of gummy bears?

If you don't care about all that, then at the very least, you should be concerned about our dying Republic.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by Glenn-Holmes and how exactly did you come to this conclusion mr. ? what a poor thing to say

Reality. In my school there were ppl buying suits from hate websites. Most of the racist individuals remain hiden and don't display their views in public. But they are still followers of Hitler or any other racist ideology.

Same thing happens in all schools. There is more than just a handful of individuals who buy racist material.

quote:

Originally posted by venomX Has it ever occurred to you that eliminating the root of the problem by targeting the situations that trigger them such as poverty, discrimination, war, et.. would be a more effective way of resolving said situations than using methods that increase the situations that trigger terrorism in the first place and in the end only increase terrorist activity instead of decreasing it?

Wow and I thought I was explaining dream land...

You seem to have all the answers; explain to all of us then why we have so many criminals in our jails then?
Surely after centuries of criminal behavior being witnessed globally, and in all cultures, we should be able to find a solution for that right?
Answers isn't so cut and dry as one might think.
I do agree that eliminating the source is exactly what is needed however, what exactly IS the pin-point source of terrorism?
We may not know, but we sure do know is where the bulk of it is coming from and that's exactly what's being tackled by what's coming down the pipe in the form of legislation and bills.
It effects us all and if we think that we're going to find some magic solution that doesn't, we're living in denial.

The real question is, where do we want to be fighting this battle because if we should so choose to ignore it, or appease it (something libs like to do) the problem doesn't go away, it just grows. In fact, it festers and becomes emboldened.

All one has to do to see just how well appeasement works, is to look at France as they are currently having this, "Root problem".

Is this what we want in OUR streets???

quote:

The French Intifada Grows Steve It isn’t widely reported as such, nor widely reported at all for that matter, but the Muslim uprising from within the French housing projects they dominate (referred to by themselves as “our ghetto”) continues to grow rather than subside since the November 2005 riots. And while cartoons of The Prophet were cited then as the cause and the American war in Iraq used as an explanation by outsiders, the French Intifada has actually been caused by neither. From the UPI’s Arnaud de Borchgrave, consider the following excerpt from Analysis: Gallic Intifada… France’s Interior Ministry said 2,500 police officers had been “wounded” this year. The head of the hard-line trade union “Action Police” Michel Thooris wrote to Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy to describe conditions in housing developments turned slums as “intifada.” Police cruisers are pelted daily with stones and “Molotov cocktails” (gasoline-filled bottles with burning wicks that explode on impact) and Thooris said cops assigned to what was rapidly degenerating into “free fire zones” should be protected in armored vehicles. Entire tall buildings empty into the streets to chase policemen and free an arrested comrade. “We are in a state of civil war, orchestrated by radical Islamists,” Thooris told journalists. Sarkozy, the leading center-right candidate for next year’s presidential election, responded by dispatching cops in body armor, equipped with automatic weapons and rubber bullets, stun and teargas grenades into several Paris suburbs with orders to “restore control” from “organized crime.” In one recent clash 250 cops dispersed a 100-strong Muslim gang armed with baseball bats. The chaotic conditions in suburbs like Clichy-sous-Bois, Montfermeil and St. Denis have grown progressively worse since the nationwide Muslim riots in November 2005 that torched 10,000 vehicles. Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin recently criticized as “overdrawn” President Bush’s frequent reference to the “global war on terror.” But the Iraq war did not appear to be part of the combustible mix in Muslim “ghettos” outside Paris. Despair, organized crime, and hatred of authority are its principal ingredients. France and the whole of Europe have before them a seemingly insurmountable challenge. So much so that it is recognized as such by French political organizations and the radical Islamist causes are being embraced for sake of electoral gains. In France, Jean-Marie Le Pen’s far right National Front appears to have opted for a can’t-lick-‘em-join-‘em strategy, a rapprochement with France’s large immigrant Muslim community — with undertones of anti-Semitism. Le Pen’s reasoning appears to be the recognition that Islamicization is in France to stay with 25 percent of France’s under 20 population Muslim (40 percent in some cities), 2nd and 3rd generation North Africans. FN’s tough stance on immigration is tempered by support for Arab and Islamist causes in the Middle East (Hamas and Hezbollah are two favorites). There are an estimated 6 to 8 million Muslims among France’s 62 million and Islam is now France’s second religion. Mosques are well attended on Fridays; churches aren’t on Sundays. France’s prison inmates are over 50 percent Muslim.

>>Source<<

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by homerj14 did this certain someone govern your state at one time? if so I really meant these small liberation attacks

Note:

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z No, majority of the terrorism is state sponsored terrorism, which is far worse in terms of it being much greater in scale and magnitude, and also has far more devestating effects. Guess who the leading terrorist state is? I'll give you a hint, it's the same one that trained and funded al-Quaeda in the first place.

A state, as in a country, not any particular individual.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Here's some more info on the subject...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5411172.stm

these terrorists are not norweigan, german, mexican, chinese, indian, russia, etc. they are muslims. it's in the interest of the entire country as a whole to keep an eye on the demographic group of people where the terrorists are coming from.