quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Israel is a state created illegitamtely just like the US and Australia, by killing off and displacing the native population and settling non-indigenous people there.

I KNEW IT! this is what it's all about. all of your other arguments are accessory to this one...making them inherently void of all reason.

so how do you feel about the Western Hemishere in general, if you believe the U.S. and those dispicable Aussies are "illegitamate"?

true colors, man...true colors.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo I KNEW IT! this is what it's all about.

What? You know what? What's what all about?

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo all of your other arguments are accessory to this one...making them inherently void of all reason.

That's by far the stupidest thing I've ever heard from you.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo so how do you feel about the Western Hemishere in general, if you believe the U.S. and those dispicable Aussies are "illegitamate"? true colors, man...true colors.

No you moron, the generation(s) living in the US & Australia are far removed from their forefathers who conquered and virtually wiped out the indigenous people of each respective continet. The present generation can't be help responsible for the crimes of people so far back in History which are non-continuos now. Plus you keep forgeting the fact that I'm American dipshit . Being highly critical of the policies of the goverment doesn't mean I hate my fellow country men , infact the two have no connection whatsoever. And the Western Hemisphere "in general" consists of people living in their ancestoral homelands.

You like making alot of false assumption Q.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r I guess it depends on what your view of what today's, "Zionism" is. The Zionism of Herzl is not the Zionism of today, so I don't know if using him as an example is really valid. (especially highlighting a quote from 1895?). Sure it may support your argument, if the year was 1895, and Zionism actually stood for finding a homeland for the Jewish people, but that's just not the case now. Remember Israel was not officially a country until 1948; a lot of the quoted articles were well before that and definitely before the eradication started in Hitler's reign, which has a lot more to do with Zionism of today than where you're trying to fit it now. That's not to take away from the fact that sure, there may be prejudices within the Jewish population, but name me any place on this Earth devoid of that?

That's a ludicrous argument at best. And I guess you didn't read all of the quotes eigther. 1979 isn't fucking centuries ago you know . And if "Zionism of today is different from what it used to be," why the fuck has Israel following the exact same doctrine and modus operandi ?

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z That's a ludicrous argument at best. And I guess you didn't read all of the quotes eigther. 1979 isn't fucking centuries ago you know . And if "Zionism of today is different from what it used to be," why the fuck has Israel following the exact same doctrine and modus operandi ?

Meh it is pointless with this guy man,dont waste your energy on him,it is like talking to a brick wall.

___________________
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quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z What? You know what? What's what all about? That's by far the stupidest thing I've ever heard from you. No you moron, the generation(s) living in the US & Australia are far removed from their forefathers who conquered and virtually wiped out the indigenous people of each respective continet. The present generation can't be help responsible for the crimes of people so far back in History which are non-continuos now. Plus you keep forgeting the fact that I'm American dipshit . Being highly critical of the policies of the goverment doesn't mean I hate my fellow country men , infact the two have no connection whatsoever. And the Western Hemisphere "in general" consists of people living in their ancestoral homelands. You like making alot of false assumption Q.

no mother ******. you said your country is "illegitamate" exemplary of "Israel" and "Australia".

so the whole of Central America is legit to you because why? they look like Spaniards?

are Canadians living in their ancestoral homeland?

you need to clarify your shit for us before you go off backpedalling about "indigenous" rights of the rest of the world when there were Jews in Palestine for the last 2000 years. lets debate that "moron"

i didn't say you hate you countrymen but you leave little fucking doubt when you say your country is illegitamate.

you've lost the propaganda debate. no sense in digging yourself an indigenous hole

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z What? You know what? What's what all about?

i had a suspicion you didn't think Israel was legitimate as a sovereign nation.

quote:

That's by far the stupidest thing I've ever heard from you.

it makes a lot of sense though, doesn't it?

if you don't think Israel exists legitimately to start off with then it doesn't matter to you whether the propaganda is for or against Israel as a point of contention because in your mind Israel has no right to exist in the first place.

all that bullshit about logical implications means nothing to you really IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z why the fuck has Israel following the exact same doctrine and modus operandi ?

I still haven't seen any evidence of this other than some useless quotes from totally different era and I'm just supposed to go with ONE from 1979??
You can do better than that...

[EDIT]
Maybe to explain it a little clearer for us, what do you believe Zionism is today and do you believe in the existence of Israel?
It's obvious this is a stumbling block for both of us.
If we're to understand where you're coming from, this definitely needs to be addressed.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Last edited by Fir3start3r on Nov-07-2006 at 13:56

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo no mother ******. you said your country is "illegitamate" exemplary of "Israel" and "Australia".

No, I didn't. I said:

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Israel is a state created illegitamtely just like the US and Australia, by killing off and displacing the native population and settling non-indigenous people there.

There's a difference between their creation and present existance. We're not exactly going around killing native Americans and Aboriginals anymore, and taking away their land. Plus it would be kind of hard to do anyways that since they're hardly any of them left . Israel on the other hand is engaged in this process and has been since the last half century. And the underlying propaganda isn't terribly different from the rationalization used to justify it; dehuminization. Replace "savage" Indians with "savage" Arabs. That the way systematic destruction of a people and and a culture has always been rationalized.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo so the whole of Central America is legit to you because why? they look like Spaniards?

Well, Latin America is mixed (native American & Spanish blood for the most part). So their ancestors are people on both sides of the conflict.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo are Canadians living in their ancestoral homeland?

No.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo you need to clarify your shit for us before you go off backpedalling about "indigenous" rights of the rest of the world when there were Jews in Palestine for the last 2000 years. lets debate that "moron"

The Jews in Palestine prior to immigration and the creation of the state of Israel got along just fine with their Christians & Muslim counterparts. The vast majority of Israeli's there now are not native to the region. Ashkenazis, Russian Jews, and Jews from other parts of the world who were brought and settled in are not Middle Eastern, and therefor not indigenous to the region. So there is no meaningful debate on that issue "moron."

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo i didn't say you hate you countrymen but you leave little fucking doubt when you say your country is illegitamate.

You should read what I wrote at the beggining again. If you think genocide and theft is a legitimate means of settling in foreign lands, that explains your support for the state of Israel and it's policies.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo you've lost the propaganda debate. no sense in digging yourself an indigenous hole

The opressed and persecuted don't need propaganda to give their plight and concerns legitimacy, reality is more than enough to make their case. The agressors on the other hand can only justify their position using propaganda, twisted logic, and distorted morality.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r I still haven't seen any evidence of this other than some useless quotes from totally different era and I'm just supposed to go with ONE from 1979?? You can do better than that...

I gave you a shit load of quotes, not one. The evidence is there in the ideological literature and the practices over the last half century. Case closed. Your arrogance and dismissal is amazing.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r [EDIT] Maybe to explain it a little clearer for us, what do you believe Zionism is today

I'm not answering a retarded question like that, again.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r and do you believe in the existence of Israel? It's obvious this is a stumbling block for both of us. If we're to understand where you're coming from, this definitely needs to be addressed.

What kind of a question is that? Do you believe in mass murder, dehumanization, expulsion from your own home, and theft?

That being said, I have no problem with legitimate immigration that doesn't involve all of the above. But that's not my decision to make. It's the decision of the host population. So what I think is fairly irrelevant. Just so you know, I believe in peaceful coexistance. And that certainly doesn't come about by more murder, theft, persecution, and dehumanizing and humiliating treatment.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer Meh it is pointless with this guy man,dont waste your energy on him,it is like talking to a brick wall.

Indeed. He asked me the same question again, which was retarted to being with.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Just a quick reply (as I'm in a hurry and just skimmed the thread)...

Let's all not confuse Zionism and neo-Zionism. Zionism, as it stands today I guess, is the belief that Israel should simply be allowed to exist. Neo-Zionism is the goal of establishing Greater Israel in Gaza and the West Bank.

When Shaolin is criticising "Zionism" (I think?) he is criticising Neo-Zionism (ie all the settlers and those who support their activities). When then have those criticising him using Zionism as the belief Israel should be allowed to exist.

Personally, I am against Neo-Zionism (ie settlements etc) and for Zionism (ie that Israel should be allowed to exist)