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Originally posted by Fir3start3r True. But then there's already tons of that already going on here. I simply can't side with Islamic radicalism when it has more relevance to me than Zionism. I emphasize 'to me' not to say that Zionism isn't bad however Zionism isn't why we (Canada) have soldiers in Afghanistan or Iraq. Zionism didn't tighten airport security around the world. Zionism isn't cutting the heads off of innocent people. Zionism isn't planting bombs in London or Madrid. Zionism isn't responsible for the deaths of millions of people in conflicts around the World; radical Islam wins that by a land slide. You say I choose sides, I agree with you.

See when you start taking sides, that's when problems start emerging. We attribute so much of things that happen to the internal processes of people, when most of what people do is mostly due to particular circumstances in particular situations. Extremism in the muslim and jewish community IS what is driving this problem. It's not just one side, and as soon as you side with one by exclusion the other side most be wrong. This problem didnt come about just because of the jews or just because of the muslims. Why are some people arguing that the jewish tactics are more cruel? Well because they have more money and better and more efficent ways of hurting people then the muslims do. The muslims can build a road side bomb, but the israelis can nuke their asses. So you see, those that have more power need more regulation, are more publicly shamed because even if their 'retaliations' are less frequent then the 'attacks', they cause alot more damage, alot more despair, and in the end alot more 'attacks.

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

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Originally posted by venomX See when you start taking sides, that's when problems start emerging. We attribute so much of things that happen to the internal processes of people, when most of what people do is mostly due to particular circumstances in particular situations. Extremism in the muslim and jewish community IS what is driving this problem. It's not just one side, and as soon as you side with one by exclusion the other side most be wrong. This problem didnt come about just because of the jews or just because of the muslims. Why are some people arguing that the jewish tactics are more cruel? Well because they have more money and better and more efficent ways of hurting people then the muslims do. The muslims can build a road side bomb, but the israelis can nuke their asses. So you see, those that have more power need more regulation, are more publicly shamed because even if their 'retaliations' are less frequent then the 'attacks', they cause alot more damage, alot more despair, and in the end alot more 'attacks.

very well said.

Kind of like Magnetoniums comments.

Targetting civilians is horrible, war is horrible, terrrorism is horrible. All of us agree to this.. but the onus ends up being placed on the person or group that actually has power to fix things.

The Israeli's have a duty to leave palestine... end the occupation and stop treating teh arabs like animals.

I can guarantee that if the palestinians had food, water, health care, education etc... their time wouldnt be focused on killing jews.. cuas afterall.. Steaks are better to eat off a grill then BBQ'ing Israelis with suicide attacks

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

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Originally posted by venomX See when you start taking sides, that's when problems start emerging. We attribute so much of things that happen to the internal processes of people, when most of what people do is mostly due to particular circumstances in particular situations. Extremism in the muslim and jewish community IS what is driving this problem. It's not just one side, and as soon as you side with one by exclusion the other side most be wrong. This problem didnt come about just because of the jews or just because of the muslims. Why are some people arguing that the jewish tactics are more cruel? Well because they have more money and better and more efficent ways of hurting people then the muslims do. The muslims can build a road side bomb, but the israelis can nuke their asses. So you see, those that have more power need more regulation, are more publicly shamed because even if their 'retaliations' are less frequent then the 'attacks', they cause alot more damage, alot more despair, and in the end alot more 'attacks.

In principle, I do agree with you but when domestic policies are changed in a country thousands of miles away, across a major ocean and with no connection for the reasons they were implemented, people are going to start pointing fingers and taking sides.

In the example of "Palestine", it has been vacated by the Israelis once before and peace wasn't for lack of trying.
The vacancy situation was abused and Israel retaliated.
If the Palestinians would just rid themselves of the Hizbullah fleabags (no thanks to Iran and Syria) that keep dragging them in, I would hazard to guess that things would have been much better than they have been.
It's not that I'm so much pro-Israel (as I have no affiliation with them at all) as much as the facts help hone my opinion.
Had the facts been reversed, my opinion, no doubt, would be as well.
If there was one well spoken pro-Palestine supporter who was above a grade 5 reading level here in, opinion could be swayed but after a couple years, that has yet to surface...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Sorry, where did I say I was supporting him again? I'm simply pointing you out at calling him 'extremist'. By that logic Clinton must be one hardcore extremist after seeing him repent with the wife in more post-Lewinsky church photo ops than I've ever seen George in lol

cmon man.. we know you are a right winged neo-con hawk lover!

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r In principle, I do agree with you but when domestic policies are changed in a country thousands of miles away, across a major ocean and with no connection for the reasons they were implemented, people are going to start pointing fingers and taking sides. In the example of "Palestine", it has been vacated by the Israelis once before and peace wasn't for lack of trying. The vacancy situation was abused and Israel retaliated. If the Palestinians would just rid themselves of the Hizbullah fleabags (no thanks to Iran and Syria) that keep dragging them in, I would hazard to guess that things would have been much better than they have been. It's not that I'm so much pro-Israel (as I have no affiliation with them at all) as much as the facts help hone my opinion. Had the facts been reversed, my opinion, no doubt, would be as well. If there was one well spoken pro-Palestine supporter who was above a grade 5 reading level here in, opinion could be swayed but after a couple years, that has yet to surface...

Just to let you know - the Muslim terrorists or independence fighters as others see it, have only been committing terrorist acts or acts of resistance years after Israel took shape. The reason why these anti-Israel anti-Western radical groups have formed is because they were tired of waiting for Israel and USA to decide when to give them autonomy, rights, territory back. You see, the war was fought between Arabs and Israelis, but it was Palestinians who ultimately got the worst of both.

And, by the way, according to Wikipedia, "Hezbollah began to take shape in response to Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon (1982 Lebanon War); on February 16, 1985 Sheik Ibrahim al-Amin publicly declared the group's manifesto, which included three goals:

Eradication of Western imperialism in Lebanon,
Transformation of Lebanon's multi-confessional state into an Islamic state,
Complete destruction of the state of Israel.[5][6]"

So there you go. Another example of when a radical/resistance group is created due to Israeli/American "terrorism"/oppression/occupation.

You see, United States called to support Israel for its fight for existence and to help it fight the Arabs, which was accepted view by the West. Then, when Iran created Hezbollah to help its Muslim brothers in Lebanon, this was perceived as terrorism. Yeah, double standards as usual.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r I'm sure it's no different that Islamic extremists ruining Islam but of course you won't see that posted here (or heaven forbid even suggested by those posted here thus far).

I originally chose to ignore this comment, but now I feel obligated to respond to it. News flash: The vast majority of western Muslims aren't radical extremists of any type. And it certainly isn't the case in the Middle East. or atleast wasn't. But we have the Bush administration to thank for radicalizing people in the region for that. You know, like wars of agression, torture etc. But you can hold on to whatever fictitious view you want. It kind of funny how you'll try to assure the rest of us that you don't think most Muslims are radical extremists/terrorists whenever you post your right wing neo con propaganda articles, but now you're clearly contradicting yourself with the implication of this statement:

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Islamic extremists ruining Islam

Does that tell you something about yourself? You don't need to answer that. Just ponder over it for a bit. I'm not going to respond to any empty arguments you present, so don't bother hijacking this thread.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z I originally chose to ignore this comment, but now I feel obligated to respond to it. News flash: The vast majority of western Muslims aren't radical extremists of any type. And it certainly isn't the case in the Middle East. or atleast wasn't.

Moderate Western Muslims never were an issue in any debate I've been involved with so why bring it up?

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But we have the Bush administration to thank for radicalizing people in the region for that. You know, like wars of agression, torture etc. But you can hold on to whatever fictitious view you want. It kind of funny how you'll try to assure the rest of us that you don't think most Muslims are radical extremists/terrorists whenever you post your right wing neo con propaganda articles, but now you're clearly contradicting yourself with the implication of this statement:

So Bush is to blame for radical Islam?
Interesting.

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Does that tell you something about yourself? You don't need to answer that. Just ponder over it for a bit. I'm not going to respond to any empty arguments you present, so don't bother hijacking this thread.

Yes, Islamic extremists are ruining Islam, most so for the innocent moderates which unfortunately have to deal with a lot of ignorant people in the Western world; I feel for them the most.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Moderate Western Muslims never were an issue in any debate I've been involved with so why bring it up? So Bush is to blame for radical Islam? Interesting. Yes, Islamic extremists are ruining Islam, most so for the innocent moderates which unfortunately have to deal with a lot of ignorant people in the Western world; I feel for them the most.

When you force thousands of people from their homes, kill innocent civilians and their family members by air strike, raids - you don't expect these traumatizied people to sit there and think "Yeah, I am OK, I am happy." You sit there in your comfortable chair, with a good job, good house, and blame the victims attempting to fight back on the pains they've went through. You don't understand that. These people cant fight back traditional methods - I mean, if you are a small group of people and you arm yourselved with Kalashnikovs and attack an Israeli fortified post - you dont have a chance and you'll be wiped out and even the western media might not even put the story on the last page. So their strategies have shifted, and they'll continue to be implemented because they work. Arab states have noticed that they cant defeat Israel using coonventional weapons. The true fighters will use any means to achieve their goals.

Haven't you noticed that terrorism/extremism occurs where one side is far better equipped and outmanned? So the big guy just labels the smaller guy as the terrorist because he feels cheated, and wants a one on one "FAIR" fight, but he doesnt understand that his victory will be inevitable in that kind of a fight - and you cant have a bully fight on even terms with a victim, because the victim knows the bully will win every time. You would label a world war II russian soldier fighting Nazis as a terrorist when, down to his last grenade and all surrounded, he would take that grenade, go on the German tank and disable it killing himself as well. A famous Soviet World War II hero was down to his last bullets so he took his molotov cocktail and made a suicidal jump on a German tank, but he killed a dozen Germans in the process. In the same war, a female Russian intelligence gatherer was captured and after torture, was publicly hanged by Germans, naked. She became a big propaganda tool inspiring Russians to fight the sick evil German machine. But I guess the Russians were the terrorists according to you, Firestarter, and some others like LazFX

Are we learning now?

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

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Originally posted by Magnetonium When you force thousands of people from their homes, kill innocent civilians and their family members by air strike, raids - you don't expect these traumatizied people to sit there and think "Yeah, I am OK, I am happy." You sit there in your comfortable chair, with a good job, good house, and blame the victims attempting to fight back on the pains they've went through. You don't understand that. These people cant fight back traditional methods - I mean, if you are a small group of people and you arm yourselved with Kalashnikovs and attack an Israeli fortified post - you dont have a chance and you'll be wiped out and even the western media might not even put the story on the last page. So their strategies have shifted, and they'll continue to be implemented because they work. Arab states have noticed that they cant defeat Israel using coonventional weapons. The true fighters will use any means to achieve their goals. Haven't you noticed that terrorism/extremism occurs where one side is far better equipped and outmanned? So the big guy just labels the smaller guy as the terrorist because he feels cheated, and wants a one on one "FAIR" fight, but he doesnt understand that his victory will be inevitable in that kind of a fight - and you cant have a bully fight on even terms with a victim, because the victim knows the bully will win every time. You would label a world war II russian soldier fighting Nazis as a terrorist when, down to his last grenade and all surrounded, he would take that grenade, go on the German tank and disable it killing himself as well. A famous Soviet World War II hero was down to his last bullets so he took his molotov cocktail and made a suicidal jump on a German tank, but he killed a dozen Germans in the process. In the same war, a female Russian intelligence gatherer was captured and after torture, was publicly hanged by Germans, naked. She became a big propaganda tool inspiring Russians to fight the sick evil German machine. But I guess the Russians were the terrorists according to you, Firestarter, and some others like LazFX Are we learning now?

I'm definitely learning who you like to coddle yes.

Russians, in fact, were the bad guys after the Nazis; at least you know your history.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

LOL @ Bad Guys!

___________________
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Kill the women. Eat the children.
It's just one of those days where you want to bend over everyone you know and kiss their ass goodbye with a big sideways boot.

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Originally posted by Cyrus King The Israeli's have a duty to leave palestine

and where would you have them go?

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Originally posted by Cyrus King i listen to trance becuase it is beautifully composed like a classical piece of music.... but with beats in it...

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Originally posted by Magnetonium I hardly if ever acknowledge sarcasm from a person I dont know because I ran into serious problems on an undisclosed buying website before.