quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus You are right, the article was no good... all I could find middle of the night when I couldn't sleep. For a more proper article: http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fort...sion=2007020109 The end result is still the same although Shell might have "voluntarily" ceded control, that would be the same as me "voluntarily" giving you all my property after you stick a gun to my head and threaten to kill me unless I do...

Hahaha, so then according to you, I put a gun to your head, tell you that I am buying 55% stake in the company for over 10 BILLION DOLLARS IN COLD HARD CASH to voluntary cede your portion of the project to 45 PERCENT because you fucked up on environmental issues??? (LOL, yeah, even 45% share - that a VERY SMALL chunk of a massive natural gas reserve in Sakhalin worth around 5 trillion dollars)

Thas a deal. SHELL screwed up the environment on Sakhalin so much, they would have lost a lot of money anyway. This way, instead of Russian government seizing the property because they violated the tough environmental laws, they saved Shell face and while let them keep a huge stake in the company inject a huge amount of cash in Shell's pocket!

You should actually read aboout the shady Yeltsin era deals that allowed Shell FOR FREE to come to Sakhalin and make money without paying any taxes.

Here's why Shell decided its safer to sell than getting ass-fucked by a lawsuit for polluting Sakhalin, from than CNN link:

"Shell's top executives, who were in Moscow at the time, weren't negotiating from a position of strength. Not in Vladimir Putin's Russia, where strong-arm tactics have been used to reassert government control of the country's vast natural resources. Last summer the Russian Ministry of Natural Resources suddenly backed Sakhalin Island environmentalists, revoking permits and delaying work on twin 400-mile pipelines that connect to a monstrous LNG terminal and an oil-export facility. The threat of a $50 billion lawsuit meant Shell stood to lose everything. "

LOL, even this article is biased. Listen to those words ... "NOT IN VLADIMIR PUTIN'S RUSSIA, WHERE STRONG ARM TACTICS ..."

fucking pussies. While countries like UK, USA can use their STRONG ARM tactics around the world and in Russia, when Russia does that TO PROTECT ITS OWN PEOPLE AND ENVIRONMENT, fucking western media makes Russian government look so evil. Russophobs. Pathetic.

-----
EDIT: Good quote from that CNN link:

"It starts with a production-sharing agreement that most observers agree was inherently unfair to Russia - a deal signed in 1996, when oil was $22 a barrel and Russia was on its knees, that gave the Shell-controlled Sakhalin Energy Investment Corp. the right to recoup all its costs plus a 17.5% rate of return before Russia would get a 10% share of the hydrocarbons coming out of the ground.

Then there was the cost of the second phase of the project, which ballooned from $10 billion in 1997 to $20 billion in 2005, fueling a perception that the company was profligate while Russians picked up the tab. The chapters in between include a calamitous safety record, a failure to meet local expectations for new roads and schools, a fuel spill in Sakhalin's third-largest city, and environmental concerns that caused anger and resentment toward Shell's leadership, earning it a reputation for stubbornness and for consistently misreading political realities."

Russia was actually PAYING for that project, paying for "cost overruns" that Shell would make up bigger every year, as seen in this quote. And as you can see, its not the first time Shell spills oil there. Read the fine print. I think the local people understand the situation better than you do.

I saw videos of dead fish and Russian women shouting abuse a mile away from the barbed-wire Shell pipe, at the sea.

"Take, for instance, the ire the company has drawn in Korsakov, a small weather-beaten port city on the island's southern coast, near Sakhalin Energy's Prigorodnoye LNG plant. Residents say the company led them to believe that housing for 6,000 construction workers would be located in the town, where it could later be reused by the community, which sorely needs it. Many people in Korsakov earn less than $300 a month - a sharp contrast to the wealth of Sakhalin Energy employees, many of whom, especially those who come from other countries, make more than $1,000 a day. "

These are mostly foreigners, earning big bucks for themselves. Well, the free ride is over.

___________________
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Last edited by Magnetonium on Feb-01-2007 at 19:51

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Hahaha, so then according to you, I put a gun to your head, tell you that I am buying 55% stake in the company for over 10 BILLION DOLLARS IN COLD HARD CASH to voluntary cede your portion of the project to 45 PERCENT because you fucked up on environmental issues??? (LOL, yeah, even 45% share - that a VERY SMALL chunk of a massive natural gas reserve in Sakhalin worth around 5 trillion dollars) Thas a deal. SHELL screwed up the environment on Sakhalin so much, they would have lost a lot of money anyway. This way, instead of Russian government seizing the property because they violated the tough environmental laws, they saved Shell face and while let them keep a huge stake in the company inject a huge amount of cash in Shell's pocket! You should actually read aboout the shady Yeltsin era deals that allowed Shell FOR FREE to come to Sakhalin and make money without paying any taxes. Here's why Shell decided its safer to sell than getting ass-fucked by a lawsuit for polluting Sakhalin, from than CNN link: "Shell's top executives, who were in Moscow at the time, weren't negotiating from a position of strength. Not in Vladimir Putin's Russia, where strong-arm tactics have been used to reassert government control of the country's vast natural resources. Last summer the Russian Ministry of Natural Resources suddenly backed Sakhalin Island environmentalists, revoking permits and delaying work on twin 400-mile pipelines that connect to a monstrous LNG terminal and an oil-export facility. The threat of a $50 billion lawsuit meant Shell stood to lose everything. " LOL, even this article is biased. Listen to those words ... "NOT IN VLADIMIR PUTIN'S RUSSIA, WHERE STRONG ARM TACTICS ..." fucking pussies. While countries like UK, USA can use their STRONG ARM tactics around the world and in Russia, when Russia does that TO PROTECT ITS OWN PEOPLE AND ENVIRONMENT, fucking western media makes Russian government look so evil. Russophobs. Pathetic. ----- EDIT: Good quote from that CNN link: "It starts with a production-sharing agreement that most observers agree was inherently unfair to Russia - a deal signed in 1996, when oil was $22 a barrel and Russia was on its knees, that gave the Shell-controlled Sakhalin Energy Investment Corp. the right to recoup all its costs plus a 17.5% rate of return before Russia would get a 10% share of the hydrocarbons coming out of the ground. Then there was the cost of the second phase of the project, which ballooned from $10 billion in 1997 to $20 billion in 2005, fueling a perception that the company was profligate while Russians picked up the tab. The chapters in between include a calamitous safety record, a failure to meet local expectations for new roads and schools, a fuel spill in Sakhalin's third-largest city, and environmental concerns that caused anger and resentment toward Shell's leadership, earning it a reputation for stubbornness and for consistently misreading political realities." Russia was actually PAYING for that project, paying for "cost overruns" that Shell would make up bigger every year, as seen in this quote. And as you can see, its not the first time Shell spills oil there. Read the fine print. I think the local people understand the situation better than you do. I saw videos of dead fish and Russian women shouting abuse a mile away from the barbed-wire Shell pipe, at the sea. "Take, for instance, the ire the company has drawn in Korsakov, a small weather-beaten port city on the island's southern coast, near Sakhalin Energy's Prigorodnoye LNG plant. Residents say the company led them to believe that housing for 6,000 construction workers would be located in the town, where it could later be reused by the community, which sorely needs it. Many people in Korsakov earn less than $300 a month - a sharp contrast to the wealth of Sakhalin Energy employees, many of whom, especially those who come from other countries, make more than $1,000 a day. " These are mostly foreigners, earning big bucks for themselves. Well, the free ride is over.

All I am saying it is very hypocritical of you to complain then about what Belarus is doing.

As for the environmental issue... this is what Lisitsyn (the environmentalist that made a fuss over Shell that the Russian government happened to all of a sudden jump on his bandwagon):

To be sure, Shell isn't the only culprit. Russia's own oil and timber companies have been pillaging the island for resources for more than a century, and Lisitsyn says, "There is a common perception that Gazprom will be much worse." Furthermore, it was the Kremlin, not Shell, that recently cut the island's take of oil taxes from 60% to just 5%. And Sakhalin Energy deserves credit for keeping the project afloat and providing employment through a period of unprecedented economic and political change in Russia.

So there you have it not only is the Kremlin fucking shell, its fucking the Russian people too. Instead of allowing Sakhalin the largest percentage of taxes from that oil (afterall the operation is in their back yard and they are losing and risking the most) they take it to their pockets! Lovely bureaucrats you have! I'm jealous, really

And btw, just so you understand context that $50 billion environmental law suit would be the "gun to head" in this example.
$50 billion is an insane number for some minor violations. Where did they get this number of course? They made it up to intimitade and strong arm Shell out of this.


Its not like I'm pleading that Shell is 100% innocent or good hearted here, but it is dispicable how the Russian government has completely disregarded the rule of law and common curtesy for their officials own personal greed (I doubt the money going now to Gazprom will ever see the hands of the Russian commoners). I hope no Western company decided to make any future large investments in that country for the time to come.

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Both sides have their evils, especially Shell which is only interested in enriching itself, not Russia or their people, but at least Gazprom is government owned so that the money is not all going into corporate pockets ;-)

Its not Gazprom who's abusing the natural resources. There are many other Russian companies besides Gazprom. And just because these are Russian, doesnt mean all of them never do anything illegal. The laws are too lax and some politicians are still corrupt.

As for small tax cut for Sakhalin province, I read about it, and I disagree with the low percentage of taxes split between the government and the region. I will have to do research into that just to see the right percentage and if there's anything done to improve the situation.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture