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Originally posted by Porky there has to be some better way i agree. but consider this. if your music really sucks you don't deserve to be paid anyways, which goes for alot of artists today. but if you really are talented, people will find a way to seek you out, attend your gigs and support you that way. i remember reading about when Tiesto first started in the late 90s. he never started getting gigs until he started producing. when ppl recognized his songs (gouryella, kamaya painters, alibi... ) they started going to his shows, which may not be alot at first but i'm sure he makes a pretty penny now from his 'concerts'. the same artists who are crying wolf online today about not making money are probably the same ones who produce crap anyways. and alot of the edm artists who are successful and play to huge crowds, should realize the value of the internet, which helped proliferate their music in the first place. i never really started listening to edm until 1999 when i downloaded pvd's Tell Me Why from napster. who knows how long i would have been listening to other kinds of music.

But determine who sucks and who doesnt? An artist that never becomes a household name doesnt necissarily suck. Why is britney spears famous?? I think she sucks!

What this does is give more power to artists tha labels know will sell and less power to the ones that would have marginally sold.Because those marginals now actually LOSE money. And again, what sells isnt necissarily what's good. So again i say, downloading is actually leading to FEWER choices in music in the long run

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Originally posted by jester Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill

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Originally posted by Jayx1 Not all artists can tour...Not all have music formats that sound well in a live setting nor are many very asthetically pleasing to watch (which sadly is sometimes more important now than the music itself) and if they can most arent willing to pay to see them. People stay home more and more due to the internet and the cacooning effect. Also, the only artists who make substantial money on the road are the big guys. You dont make much money playing in little bars that charge $5 cover. Ring tones etc are also being stolen now at a very high rate. What needs to happen is that people need to start to understand that music is something that needs to be paid for. If they dont pay for it it will simply go away. The death of 1 major label means that 1000s of smaller ones have already bit the biscuit.. PS many deaths of major labels have already occurred in the last few years by way of mergers. Virgin Records is goners, as is BMG. And guess what? The fewer big record labels there are THE MORE CONTROL THE REMAINING ONES WILL HAVE ON WHAT EVERYONE LISTENS TO! Seriously folks, wake up before its too late

I disagree almost completely here. Thinking that changing the collective behaviour of the customer is the answer is pretty much what the record labels are hoping for. That's simply not working, nor will it ever. If you are an artist, you have to adapt, you have to be flexible, you have to deliver a product that is in demand. You also have to cut through the clutter and create a following of fans.

If your product doesn't sound good live, your appearance isn't aesthetically pleasing, and people aren't willing to pay to see you - what exactly are you doing putting out music? Today's music marketplace is flooded with a tremendous amount of crap, both from the major labels and from independent artists. If you aren't making any money and you aren't willing to struggle to make it, you should probably question why you are doing what you are doing.

Music will never go away. Even if we get to a point where the infinte catalogue of every recording ever made is available for free on one site, people will continue to make music and contribute to this database. Those that are talented and smart will continue to make money for their art.

The only thing the record labels really have to offer to us today is their catalogue. They are essentially massive database/catalogue companies who are doing a terrible job. Yes, mergers, takeovers and bankruptcies will continue to happen. This is a casualty of a changing marketplace, and it happens in every industry.

If you continue to believe that the best way for things to move forward is for them to go back to the way they were, you are wearing blinders - just like the major labels.

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Just concentrate, and try some music

I think you're missing the point here. I'm not saying music should be free. (I'd LOVE to buy Digital Blonde's Synthology album if only the ******s at J00F would finally release a hardcopy version of it) The point is that RIAA shop this whole charade with fighting piracy and give up, as they've clearly lost. I mean, really, what is at stake here? You think if they suddenly stop their campaign, music CD sales will drop down to 0? Fuck no. People who pirate now will continue to pirate. Despite all the huffing and puffing the RIAA is doing, the pirates continue to pirate because: a) the odds of getting caught are slim to none and b) if you know what you're doing the odds of getting caught are 0. So we've established pirates don't give a shit about RIAA's actions. Okay, what about the people who don't pirate now? These people already understand the value of music and whatnot and are willing to give their money to the artists. They're paying for music because they want to, not because RIAA told them to. How do I know this? Because if they didn't want to pay for music, they'd be pirating it already as it's ridiculously easy to do. So, the net effect of RIAA's efforts are insignificant save for those few poor souls who actually got sued by them. Despite all this, they continue wasting the artists' money by suing dead grandmas, touting their useless campaign, and shooting themselves in the foot with new regulations.

P.S. I'd be be a lot less adverse to buying music if I could return a CD I don't like the same way I can return a pencil I don't like. Buut, thanks to our music vendors who care so much about their customers' satisfaction, this is no longer possible. Seriously, would I drive to HMV, buy a CD, bring it home, burn it, drive back to HMV to return it, when I can just click "download" on bittorrent? FFS, if you guys are making music a commodity, it should be under the same rules as any other commodity, meaning if i don't like it, i should get my money back for the shit album i bought.

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I'm the trouble starter, fuckin' instigator.
I'm the fear-addicted, danger illustrated.

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Originally posted by Cosmic Fur P.S. I'd be be a lot less adverse to buying music if I could return a CD I don't like the same way I can return a pencil I don't like. Buut, thanks to our music vendors who care so much about their customers' satisfaction, this is no longer possible. Seriously, would I drive to HMV, buy a CD, bring it home, burn it, drive back to HMV to return it, when I can just click "download" on bittorrent? FFS, if you guys are making music a commodity, it should be under the same rules as any other commodity, meaning if i don't like it, i should get my money back for the shit album i bought.

Not music vendors, but record labels. They make the rules about how thier products are sold - both physically and digitally. Otherwise, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Your points represent the sentiment and mentality of the educated music consumer. We are being punished for following the rules - so why would we follow them?

The market/customer will always be the force that dictates price/usage/etc. Once the labels wake up to this, things will improve for everyone.

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Just concentrate, and try some music

One bad apple fuks up the whole basket.

Such is the case in music industry. Piracy started because people wanted to make a quick buck and and wanted to be the first ones to have a video or a cd. That led to rules and limitations which led to more piracy which led to more limitations which led to more piracy ... you see where i am going with this.

We all are pretty much edcucated about whats happening now lets start figuring out what we can do to help and avoid this cat and mouse game to continue. one thing i would like to see is direct selling. From the artist to the record label and then directly into the hands of consumers. fuk the middle man and the stores that charge you 35 dollars for one freakin CD.

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Let's bring the change!!!

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Originally posted by TranceGrooves one thing i would like to see is direct selling. From the artist to the record label and then directly into the hands of consumers. fuk the middle man and the stores that charge you 35 dollars for one freakin CD.

Oh god yes.

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I'm the trouble starter, fuckin' instigator.
I'm the fear-addicted, danger illustrated.

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Originally posted by Revival160 If your product doesn't sound good live, your appearance isn't aesthetically pleasing, and people aren't willing to pay to see you - what exactly are you doing putting out music?

With this attitude say good bye to most dance music. Martha Wash wouldnt never sell in today's market.

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Music will never go away. Even if we get to a point where the infinte catalogue of every recording ever made is available for free on one site, people will continue to make music and contribute to this database. Those that are talented and smart will continue to make money for their art.

music will always be here, but what im saying is that we are getting fewer and fewer options now.

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The only thing the record labels really have to offer to us today is their catalogue. They are essentially massive database/catalogue companies who are doing a terrible job. Yes, mergers, takeovers and bankruptcies will continue to happen. This is a casualty of a changing marketplace, and it happens in every industry.

agreed but i dont care about the labels for the label's sake. I care about them because they run 80% of the whole business so if they hurt, everyone does. As you are seeing now.

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If you continue to believe that the best way for things to move forward is for them to go back to the way they were, you are wearing blinders - just like the major labels.

Im not saying things should go back to the past. The CD is dead. But people have to get the idea out of their heads that music is somehow free for the taking. How many people wont even pay 99 freaking cents to buy a single online?? Just sad IMO.

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Originally posted by jester Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill

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Originally posted by Jayx1 With this attitude say good bye to most dance music. Martha Wash wouldnt never sell in today's market.

Disagree. There are many ways for artists to make money - touring/live performances are just one. Creativity and flexibility are the keys. This still doesn't mean that you are entitled to make a living by producing bad music. If your music is good, and people can find out about it, you'll make money.

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Im not saying things should go back to the past. The CD is dead. But people have to get the idea out of their heads that music is somehow free for the taking. How many people wont even pay 99 freaking cents to buy a single online?? Just sad IMO.

99 cents is too costly for a download. Add this to the restrictions that the labels put on how/when/where you can use this music (that you are buying legally on line), and what real reason do we have to make the purchase? Decreasing wholesale costs and getting rid of DRM will vastly improve the landscape. What needs to happen is that the cost/effort/frustration level of buying legally needs to be a stronger offer than the case for downloading illegally. Then you'll see a change in customer behaviour, and you'll see the increases in digital sales start to make up for the slide in physical sales.

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Just concentrate, and try some music

^ Agree. Instead of focusing on curbing piracy, RIAA should be focusing on making buying music more convenient for the consumer.

And I disagree that the CD is dead. I wouldn't pay $20 for a bunch of mp3s, but I would pay $20 for a CD (if it's really good). The difference? The fact that I have a material product in front of me. Buying mp3s will NEVER bring me the same satisfaction as opening up a brand new CD, leafing through the cover insert, and examining the actual disc cover itself. There's just something to be said about holding what you bought in your hand, as opposed to just having a bunch of new mp3s on my HD.

On a related note, I bought 2 CDs yesterday which came to be $60 in total. Yea. :/ My only excuse for such foolishness (well not really, one is REALLY good, and one is so-so) is that I was high when I bought them. So, you want music sales to rise? Give people a joint when they walk into a record store - it's almost guaranteed to make them want to buy one.

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I'm the trouble starter, fuckin' instigator.
I'm the fear-addicted, danger illustrated.

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Originally posted by Cosmic Fur On a related note, I bought 2 CDs yesterday which came to be $60 in total. Yea. :/ My only excuse for such foolishness (well not really, one is REALLY good, and one is so-so) is that I was high when I bought them. So, you want music sales to rise? Give people a joint when they walk into a record store - it's almost guaranteed to make them want to buy one.

You still have three more to buy!