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TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > Michael Moore's 'Sicko'
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metalgearsolid
I am a sexist



Registered: Apr 2005
Location: For you neo/

quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
You can't mandate something like that! Talk about taking away personal freedoms. Shit, let a person retire if they want. Maybe that shit flies in Venezuela, but then again their infrastructure is shit.

I didn't mean that it had to be forced upon them. But wouldn't you feel better doing something for the greater good? I mean what are you going to do when you are retired? Play golf all day or go to Thailand and sleep with 12yr old girls?
They should return to being teachers. Society needs them.

Old Post May-24-2007 16:50 
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NeoPhono
Übermensch



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: In Orbit

I think it's a tough problem to solve overall. It's not just a problem of there not being enough people to teach new doctors, it's also a problem of finding qualified individuals that want to become doctors in the first place, as well as keeping practicing doctors in their field. Even if we began to drastically increase the amount of doctors being trained, I don't think we'd be able to keep up with an aging population and a population that is becoming increasingly dependent on physicians. There's been a shift in mentality from seeing the doctor as a last resort to wanting to be seen at the first sign of trouble. Things such as colds, a bout of vomiting or diarrhea or stiffness/soreness used to be treated with the old "chicken soup and fluids" or a couple Aspirin, but the current trend is that all of these now demand a doctor's visit.

So, I guess I'd summarize as to why we have a shortage of doctors as:

- A decrease in those wanting to be doctors
- A decrease in doctors practicing for the "normal" length of time
- An increase in doctor visits for reasons that used to be considered trivial
- An enormous rise in the elderly population

Old Post May-25-2007 00:52  United States
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Shakka
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2003
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by metalgearsolid
I didn't mean that it had to be forced upon them. But wouldn't you feel better doing something for the greater good? I mean what are you going to do when you are retired? Play golf all day or go to Thailand and sleep with 12yr old girls?
They should return to being teachers. Society needs them.


I only subscribe to the greater good theory if it's predicated on voluntary behavior. Encouraging something is one thing, requiring it is another.

Old Post May-25-2007 02:40  United States
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_Ocean_Drive_
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Iwate

Trailer:




Michael Moore on Oprah (includes clips from 'Sicko'):

Part 1:



Part 2:


___________________
quote:
Originally posted by DJ Mikey Mike
Social outcasts are often of the opinion that they must have a drink before being able to loosen up with their inhibitions, thus being able to have a good time.

There's a word that sums up this sort of behaviour, and that word is 'reject.'

Old Post Jun-06-2007 20:45  Japan
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NeoPhono
Übermensch



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: In Orbit

Moore and Oprah. The Keymaster and Gatekeeper are in union. The return of Gozer is nigh.

Seriously though, when two forces of sensationalist propaganda and unbridled sanctimony of this magnitude meet, the fabric of space/time is in jeopardy.

I am interested in the movie I'll admit, but not socialized medicine or bleeding hearts.

Old Post Jun-06-2007 22:36  United States
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Shakka
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2003
Location:

Don't even think about crossing the streams. If someone asks you if you are a god, you say YES!!!

Old Post Jun-07-2007 02:53  United States
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Zild
Ten City



Registered: Jun 2004
Location: San Antonio, US : TXTA #156

Our healthcare is great. Provided you make enough to pay for insurance.


___________________
I've never been able to eat a whole baby.
Kill the women. Eat the children.
It's just one of those days where you want to bend over everyone you know and kiss their ass goodbye with a big sideways boot.

Latest Mix

Old Post Jun-07-2007 09:26  United States
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_Ocean_Drive_
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Iwate

quote:
Originally posted by NeoPhono
Moore and Oprah. The Keymaster and Gatekeeper are in union. The return of Gozer is nigh.

Seriously though, when two forces of sensationalist propaganda and unbridled sanctimony of this magnitude meet, the fabric of space/time is in jeopardy.

I am interested in the movie I'll admit, but not socialized medicine or bleeding hearts.


Hmmm. Maybe the fire service should be privatised also, and then your life and death situation and fire engine will have to be pre-approved whilst your house is burning to the ground.

quote:
Originally posted by Zild
Our healthcare is great. Provided you make enough to pay for insurance.


Not so (see clips).


___________________
quote:
Originally posted by DJ Mikey Mike
Social outcasts are often of the opinion that they must have a drink before being able to loosen up with their inhibitions, thus being able to have a good time.

There's a word that sums up this sort of behaviour, and that word is 'reject.'

Old Post Jun-07-2007 11:43  Japan
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NeoPhono
Übermensch



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: In Orbit

quote:
Originally posted by _Ocean_Drive_
Hmmm. Maybe the fire service should be privatised also, and then your life and death situation and fire engine will have to be pre-approved whilst your house is burning to the ground.


"Life and death" situations are treated in the hospitals regardless of pre-approval. And that's an area where the government actually could play a role; preventing insurance fraud on the part of insurance companies. Half the reason (if not all) we have these problems in the first place is the government. Medicare, being virtually bankrupt, decided that it wasn't going to pay the full price for health care anymore. A doctor charges a Medicare patient $50 and the government decides it will only pay $20. So, a doctor has to charge everyone else $80 for the same thing. But then the insurance companies decided they're going to dictate how much they pay doctors as well, in fact even dictating what care they'll "allow" their customers to receive. They figure if the government can dictate those things, they should be able too.

You have a bankrupt socialized medical system in Medicare, which a national health system would soon be, that by example allows private insurance companies to do the same things it does; underpay and dictate treatment, all at grossly inflated costs that are a product of doctors raising prices in order to compensate for underpayment and for the costs of the bureaucracy now involved with medical care.



quote:
Not so (see clips).


That's like saying God exists because the bible says so.

Old Post Jun-07-2007 12:19  United States
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas

Andy Grove (ex-CEO of Intel) had a good op-ed in the latest issue of Fortune magazine on this topic:

quote:
source: http://money.cnn.com/2007/05/29/new...rtune/index.htm

An open letter to the candidates
Business legend Andy Grove shares a few modest proposals to fix health care, from Fortune Magazine.
FORTUNE Magazine
By Andy Grove
May 29 2007: 4:59 PM EDT

To: Hillary Clinton, Mitt Romney, Barack Obama, Rudy Giuliani, John Edwards, John McCain, et al.

cc: Newt Gingrich


Andy Grove

The rise and fall of Ilan Reich
Discovery Channel gets a boost from Oprah
What can India do about global warming?
FORTUNE 500
Current Issue
Subscribe to Fortune

Each of you will have to address health care, and with good reason. The U.S. health-care system is expensive and uneven, in both quality and availability. Medical spending is 16% of the GDP, and that share is growing; U.S. life expectancy is so-so; and the ranks of the uninsured number 46 million and counting (rapidly).

Your staff is probably working on a big, ambitious plan to fix health care.

Depending on whether you lean left or right, it's either a universal health-care plan or a way to increase market influence throughout the health-care economy. I have a best-of-all-worlds idea too. In my system the government would cover preventive care and catastrophic health-related expenses. The ordinary medical expenses would be left to individuals. The reason I like this approach is that it has built-in incentives to support preventive care, and it would also protect people from financial ruin due to illness. Yet for most situations, the power of the consumer economy would be allowed to do its magic.

The only problem with my plan - and yours - is that it's too much. Look at the history of health-care reform in our country. Presidents have been putting forth plans for comprehensive health-care reform for 100 years. That's not a typo. Woodrow Wilson proposed universal health care. So did Harry Truman, Richard Nixon, and Bill Clinton (see table). None of them got there. I believe none of you will either.

Society is simply resistant to fundamental change. Dramatic departures can take place only in a crisis. Example: It took the Great Depression for our government to implement a safety net (the New Deal). It's not that we haven't been making changes. We've been doing that all along. It's just that the successful reforms haven't been all-encompassing; they've improved the health-care system for some. The Veterans Administration was formed in the '30s. Medicare became law in the '60s. Step by step, chunk by chunk, each of those events moved us forward.

This is what I suggest: Fix specific problems of the system. Leave bigtime changes for later, after you've demonstrated that you can solve more limited problems. Until then, I propose that you commit to two - and only two - programs.
Fix the emergency-room emergency

Emergency rooms have become the de facto health-care system for millions. The uninsured go there because they have nowhere else to go - by some estimates they account for a bit over half of all emergency-room visits. The insured go there as well, when they feel that their needs cannot wait for an appointment during business hours.

The first step in fixing this mess is to establish minimum standards for all ERs. A lot of work has already been done to specify methods of dealing with heart attacks, strokes, and other emergencies: Commit to these standards.

The same goes for acceptable patient waiting times: Set the standard, and implement it. How to pay for those upgrades? Levy a 1% surtax on all health-care billings and use the proceeds as a fund for ERs that meet the rules.

Tell hospitals and medical centers that if they want to dip into this new 1% fund, they have to put a lower-cost walk-in clinic under the same roof as the ER. Demand further that the clinic be open 24/7 and staffed with primary-care professionals who can deal with asthma attacks, ear infections, and other nonemergencies on a cash basis. Require a triage system that directs patients to either the ER or the clinic, using well-defined criteria. Running the clinics could even be outsourced. You can already find this kind of clinic in the corners of pharmacies and chain stores like CVS and Target. Their offerings are still rudimentary - flu shots, standard screening tests, that sort of thing. But their capabilities will expand over time. Retailers have ambitious plans for this new line of business: Wal-Mart recently announced a target of 6,600 in-store clinics. I think that company and others would jump at the opportunity to run clinics right next to ERs.

One more thing. Mandate that to qualify for the 1% fund, both the ER and the new clinic must use the Internet to provide a simple health-record system: a file of the stored images of faxed documents, retrievable by electronic locks (a combination of passwords and security codes kept on a chip). By doing so, you will allow patients to "carry" records of their treatment from the ER or clinic to a doctor near their home. Unlike the task of harmonizing the many assorted electronic medical-record systems used in hospitals, this is a technically trivial job if you act now.
Keep parents at home

The cost of caring for the elderly is huge and will only grow as our population ages. Of the $440,000 the average American spends on health care in his lifetime, $280,000 will be spent after age 65.

Probably 50% of that post-65 outlay goes to assisted-living facilities and nursing homes. So it stands to reason that if there were a way to keep elderly patients in their own homes longer - without degrading quality of care - we'd have a cheaper and better system.

And we can do just that using technology. I'm talking everyday, low-cost technology - the sensors, microchips, small radios you'd find in today's PCs, in cellphones, and in Bluetooth earpieces. It's not too difficult to use this stuff as monitoring tools. Not to spy, but to detect trouble. For example, did the patient go outside to get the newspaper or did she wander away? Has the patient taken his meds? The same technology that brings us HBO can watch over the patient and trigger human intervention when needed.

A critical step to make this happen is to have it blessed - and reimbursed - by the dominant health-care supplier to the aged, Medicare. Candidates, I hope to see a phrase in your inauguration speech that starts like this: "I will have Medicare define specifications for electronic equipment that allows the average aging citizen to stay home two years longer than today."

Can we afford all this? Let's do the math. In my estimation, the ER plan can be implemented for $20 billion per year, paid for with the 1% surtax I suggest. As for the elder-care plan, the savings achieved by keeping just 10% of the aging population in their homes can amount to $30 billion a year.

So, yes, Mr./Ms. Presidential Candidate, we can afford it. Not making these reforms would be the same as burning $30 million a day at the local dump.

Commit to doing these two concrete things - now. You will save money. You will improve the lives of millions of citizens. And you will demonstrate to yourself, and to all of us, that we are a country of doers. That is worth the program by itself.




I like this approach because it is doable and tackles two of the biggest reasons that make our health care expensive.

I don't like this proposal because it levy's a new tax; if this is done I believe it should be embedded in the price and insurance/doctors should not be allowed to increase their prices to compensate for the tax. (In away this would force a 1% efficiency increase if you want to think of it that way).


___________________
SAVE ZIONIST MUSTARD: BUY ZIONIST KETCHUP!


Click here to support the free mustard alliance.

Old Post Jun-07-2007 16:01  Israel
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NeoPhono
Übermensch



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: In Orbit

I'm not a big fan, because even though he says it's a plan that goes "both ways" in that it has conservative and liberal values, the only I get out of it is a bigger role and more involvement of the government in health care.

He seems to be calling for:


  • An increase in health care taxes
  • Demand ERs open adjunct clinics
  • Require these clinics and ERs to follow arbitrary "acceptable waiting times"
  • Create an internet-based charting system with personal security chips
  • Create an entirely new system to monitor the elderly based on "sensors, microchips and small radios"


I only see further intrusion of the government instead of less in his plan. The only thing that comes close is his proposal to outsource these ER clinics ala WalMart. Here's the fundamental flaw though; people go to the ER when they're uninsured because it's "free." He's telling us that the clinics would be cashed-based, defeating the purpose of a "free" ER visit by the uninsured or unwilling to pay. So what happens? An uninsured person goes to the ER because they have a tummy ache or their ear hurts and they're told to go to the clinic, where they'll have to pay. All they need to do now is add on chest pain or dizziness and voila, they're now going to the emergency room, still clogging up the system with non-emergent problems and still getting a free doctor visit.

Everything else just adds more layers of government involvement and oversight and more expense to the system.

Old Post Jun-07-2007 18:11  United States
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_Ocean_Drive_
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Iwate

quote:
Originally posted by NeoPhono
"Life and death" situations are treated in the hospitals regardless of pre-approval.


There is a scene in the film that is apparently absolutely heart-wrenching to watch, but unfortunately proves your statement false.

But what is wrong exactly with people paying higher tax to help out their fellow citizens when they get diagnosed with cancer or need to get insulin?


___________________
quote:
Originally posted by DJ Mikey Mike
Social outcasts are often of the opinion that they must have a drink before being able to loosen up with their inhibitions, thus being able to have a good time.

There's a word that sums up this sort of behaviour, and that word is 'reject.'

Old Post Jun-10-2007 15:04  Japan
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TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > Michael Moore's 'Sicko'
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