quote:

Originally posted by emc^2 Well, why don't you tell me how to view them? I mean - here you are, using all this energy to allude to some point, yet always so carefully tip-toeing your way around it.

He does do that allot, especially when it comes to Islam and its fucked up radicals.... I mean really jorge.....

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley

First line reads "In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" Second line reads أنا هو القيامة والحق والحياة من آمن بي وإن مات فسيحيا (from John 11:25, in English Bible the same passage read: "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies")

And the images are the Church of the Nativity

(It's a Fatah terrorist)

quote:

Originally posted by LazFX He does do that allot, especially when it comes to Islam and its fucked up radicals.... I mean really jorge.....

Actually I have no problem criticising Islamic extremists but I do have a problem with emc^2 (and others) trying to portray all Muslims in the world as terrorists (which emc^2 freely admits)

I see thread after thread on here where people "attempt" to debate Islamic extremism, but every single one of those threads makes no attempt to debate Islamic extremism as they offer no solution to the problem, all they aim to do is portray all Muslims as terrorists, which 1) isn't true, and 2) shows them up to be ignorant bigots

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo hey George, who insults Islam more you think? Salmon Rushdie or the extremists who kill innocents in the name of Islam?

That would depend entirely from your perspective - from theirs, Rushdie obviously, from mine (and the West in general and sane Muslims) then obviously those extremists that murder in the name of their religion

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley First line reads "In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" Second line reads أنا هو القيامة والحق والحياة من آمن بي وإن مات فسيحيا (from John 11:25, in English Bible the same passage read: "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies") And the images are the Church of the Nativity (It's a Fatah terrorist)

interesting. trying to put my head around it.

i guess whoever illustrated it was begging for some irony? really, i don't know exactly.

thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN well, as an australian we don't even get fox news so im wondering where you got that lovely assumption from? FYI part of my honours year was comprised of terrorism courses so im not some slack-jawed yokel.

Sorry wasn't trying to portray you as such (and Fox news was an example). However, as you have studied terrorism then it's the same thing I was aluring to - that you only learn/hear about the extremists (you seem to be basing your opinion of an entire culture - over a billion people! - on the extremists you have studied and seen on the news)

quote:

firstly, this thread is about islam. if you wanna make another one bashing catholicism

I was merely making comparative points

quote:

secondly, define "extreme" islam. tell me how it is different from "moderate" islam. the differences tend to stem from differences in interpretation (or action) over different parts of the koran. not dissimilar from old testament to new testament adherents. who is to say so-called "extremist" islamists just have a superior understanding of the koran than the so-called "moderates"?

Well, I would say moderates don't go around killing people, extremists do.

quote:

furthermore, i would argue that people in public office, are either a) moderate muslims or b) elected in part by moderate muslims. and here they are demanding apologies or retractions? give me a fucking break. if you can't see that islam (moderate or otherwise)c an be in complete opposition to western concepts such as freedom of expression, then i wonder... the christians might kick up a stink from time to time, but i don't recall the last time christians went on a rampage, burned infrastructure and killed people because of a perceived blasphemy in cartoon form.

All religion can be the complete opposite of Western ideals of free speech (and economics)! And Islam has more extremists that any other religion, but you have to remember most Muslims are based in developing countries where law and order are perhaps not as well maintained as in the West. I think if the roles were reversed then yes, Christians would be just the same (in fact, if you want to compare how different religions would react in similar situations just look at what the Christians got up to in Lebanon. They slaughtered whole villages at a time!)

quote:

i am certainly not doubting that all religions cause many many deeply ingrained problems in all our societies. but it isn't the 6 o'clock news that is skewing our opinions, its the simple fact that militant islamists go farther in their protests than their counterparts. whether this is an inherent problem with islam i dont know, but the problem is certainly there. to deny such i think somebody is a little too pre-occupied with political correctness and too scared to call a spade a spade.

The danger is that if you want to "solve" this problem by passing it off as simply a question of religion then you will find no solution. Of course religion has it's part to play, but the way you and others are looking at it (by attempting to portray all Muslims as a potential enemy) then 1) you won't get to the root of the problem of extremism and 2) you'll push moderates to join their cause (us vs them)

The bottom line is that Islam is evil and hateful and is based off of a raving lunatics, dreams. Even Mohamed thought he was possessed.....

plus he was a pedo and a rapist, murderer and who knows what else.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo interesting. trying to put my head around it. i guess whoever illustrated it was begging for some irony? really, i don't know exactly. thanks.

It's a Christian member of Fatah (and using religious beliefs of the Bible to justify their actions)

I'm not aware of any Christian suicide bombers (tho that's not the issue) but they do believe in a martyrs death (ie passage to heaven)

There are many Christian members of Fatah and one of the biggest and deadliest PLO factions (the PFLP) was set up by a Christian.

The point I am trying to make is that it's not necessarily something inherent in a religion that makes someone committ murder, but the situation they find themselves in (and religion or ideology provides a justification for their actions). Same for Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

Like I said above, if you create an even playing field then they are all as dispicable as each other - see the actions of Muslims and Christians in Lebanon during the war.

Comparing Muslims in deeply religious countries like Pakistan to Western "Christians" is just a nonsense argument because the Western "Christians" are not likely to Christians at all (ie they wont be religious). And the reason for that is the countries they live in. You can't compare a man off the street in the UK and compare him with a man off the street in Pakistan in religious terms - it just doesn't work

quote:

Originally posted by LazFX The bottom line is that Islam is evil and hateful and is based off of a raving lunatics, dreams. Even Mohamed thought he was possessed..... plus he was a pedo and a rapist, murderer and who knows what else.

That maybe true, but the fact is I live in an area pretty much dominated by Muslims and as far as I'm aware there has been no problems because of it. So if that is how you want to view Mohammed fine, there is evidence to suggest that's true, but if you want to portray every Muslim on Earth as also being a rapist and kiddie-fiddler then you're treading on thin ice...

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley That maybe true, but the fact is I live in an area pretty much dominated by Muslims and as far as I'm aware there has been no problems because of it. So if that is how you want to view Mohamed fine, there is evidence to suggest that's true, but if you want to portray every Muslim on Earth as also being a rapist and kiddie-fiddler then you're treading on thin ice...

That's not what I meant and you GOD DAMN WELL KNEW IT!!!
I have relatives that have converted to Islam, I work with Muslims and none of them are terrorists, its just that Islam can be misinterpreted, and most Muslims do not speak out against how thier religion is getting ass raped by the Jihads. Instead of making excuses or side stepping the issue, why don't you and the other Muslims DO SOMETHING about you religion getting a bad rap due to the extremists? You would rather say, "Its the West or the Jews" rather than looking at your religion and seeing its errors.

quote:

Originally posted by emc^2 Suppose we don't view every Muslim as terrorist.

There's no "suppose" about it! We DON'T! That fact that you do and the fact you freely admit you distrust all Muslims (I wonder if you did before 9/11?) negates anything you say on the matter.

quote:

Also, scenario based question: Say you're on a bus, train, plane, whatever - mass transportation. In walks in a dude, wearing typical muslim grab. He's carrying a backpack and looks obviously nervious. He then sits in the corner, avoiding eye contact, while fumbling with his bag. You notice a bead of sweat running down his forehead. What do you think and do at that point?

Happens most times I get on the bus (plus a suicide bombers wouldn't wear traditional Muslim dress). I usually play Sudoku

quote:

Please no nit-picking here. We're talking about extremists - so, in that sense, makes no difference if you use a car bomb or other device - murder is murder.

That was my point you clever clever little boy!

quote:

Actually George, I say statistics would prove me wrong - so, no, not all Muslims are extremists. As a matter of fact, I know quite a few that are "moderate" even what you'd call... "modern" in their views. Funny enough, many of them are Iranian. Yet, part of the problem is that it's impossible to distinguish non-radical from radical. Therefore, a basic principle of security should be considered: assume all are hostile until proven otherwise. Sorry, such are the rules of engagement. Not fair? Racist? Near-sighted? YOU BETCHA! But between being an alive biggot or dead, naive hippie, I chose option "A". You can thank the radicals for that. Oh, and just in case it bothered "moderates" - I figure they'd do something about it, to sort of improve the "image". Just as an example, I'm sure that should catholics start bombing baptists or whatever other faith vs faith - the LAW would promptly step in and defend HUMAN LIFE. I don't see too much of "life-saving measures" being too-widespread or preached by Islam. Quite the contrary, to be percise.

And you my friend, is why America is hated around the world...good job, keep it up, especially for one who is concerned with his own security...

quote:

George, you know - I was wondering what kept me awake all these nights and you finally opened my eyes to it! I really care about someone else's opinion of me or how I'm taken.

Well don't make the same mistake that I care about what some 10 year old on his mum's computer thinks about the world either!

quote:

Um... Isn't it what I said? That there are bunch of muslims that adhere to radical vision of Islam? What are we betting on again?

Ok well put your money where your mouth is and take me up on my bet, deal?

quote:

O, the fucking ego on YOU, boy. Shit, must be quite lonely on top of that high horse you rode in on. You know what George, that's the point - I've yet to see you make any sensible argument. Arguing against what you're saying is like talking to a wall - same results. I'm convinced that even if I spent the rest of my life trying to get you to face the facts, you'd just be turning your stupid mug around and saying "Show me proof! Show me proof! I don't see it!", while proof is right there - laid out in front of you. ...and there's no point in making jokes about your mom - having you as an offspring is already insulting enough to that poor woman. And there's nothing funny about that.

This is the problem with you mate, you don't have any skills to make valid arguments (unlike the rest of the people on this thread who despite disagreeing with, I can actually have a sane debate with, well, some!) All you do is state your (admittidly) racists comments then it just decends into some kind of incoherent tirade of abuse!

Get a grib man! (And don't get me wrong, I love swearing and name calling as much as the next man, but at least make it revevant or whitty!)

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley It's a Christian member of Fatah (and using religious beliefs of the Bible to justify their actions)

i see. i was about to say there is no plurality of Allah in Islam (i'm pretty sure) like there is the Trinity in Christianity and if that were true he would be horribly blasphemous in the eyes Islam.

quote:

I'm not aware of any Christian suicide bombers (tho that's not the issue) but they do believe in a martyrs death (ie passage to heaven)

well, thats a start i guess. though, the Christian martyrdom thing is about as marginal as you can get given the last 2000 years of Christianity. it has certainly foregone the New Testament.

quote:

There are many Christian members of Fatah and one of the biggest and deadliest PLO factions (the PFLP) was set up by a Christian.

i did not know that. definately worth some scrutiny.

quote:

The point I am trying to make is that it's not necessarily something inherent in a religion that makes someone committ murder, but the situation they find themselves in

outside the Israeli conflict and Palestinians, given what you are saying is true, i see no relevence in Christianity being as militant as militant Islam though. i don't believe it is, outside that.

quote:

Like I said above, if you create an even playing field then they are all as dispicable as each other - see the actions of Muslims and Christians in Lebanon during the war.

see thats where i believe the root of problem is. you, as a moderate, and everyone that does apologize for terror (i'm not saying thats you) do a huge dis-service to peace when you "level that playing field." even if your trying to convey an understading for a greater good.
it's serves no purpose but to prove your arguments in some narrow semantic scope and more importantly, more dangerously, falsely legitimizes and emboldens those that wish to use extreme methods to further Islam. those that you freely admit exist.

quote:

Comparing Muslims in deeply religious countries like Pakistan to Western "Christians" is just a nonsense argument because the Western "Christians" are not likely to Christians at all (ie they wont be religious). And the reason for that is the countries they live in. You can't compare a man off the street in the UK and compare him with a man off the street in Pakistan in religious terms - it just doesn't work

i can and i should if those deeply religious and extreme fanatics are willing to import their ideals into Western countries.