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Originally posted by Magnetonium The way I see it, its dangerous to inject a child with vaccinations at very early age, just like you dont feed the child the food you eat either that early. I was vaccinated much later, I think it was when I was at least couple years old, not sure though.

by what reasons do you believe your knowledge on the subject is superior than the world's doctors and immunologists?

i know people like you and shaolin LOVE to turn your nose up against accepted practice, be all "revolutionary" in how you don't just take what "the man" feeds you, but this is bordering on the ridiculous. until you have a bachelor of medicine, i find your notions of comparing vaccinations to baby food to be quite ridiculous.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN by what reasons do you believe your knowledge on the subject is superior than the world's doctors and immunologists? i know people like you and shaolin LOVE to turn your nose up against accepted practice, be all "revolutionary" in how you don't just take what "the man" feeds you, but this is bordering on the ridiculous. until you have a bachelor of medicine, i find your notions of comparing vaccinations to baby food to be quite ridiculous.

I dont need to have a bachelor's degree to know common knowledge of nearly 10,000 Canadians who die from preventable hospital errors every year. And many others who die from bad medicines, recalled drugs, etc. Health is too much of an important issue to trust to some beglemoth corporation or the government. People need to ALWAYS keep a sharp eye on this. I am not turning the nose against the accepted methods as much you are trying to make it look. Did I say I was against vaccinations? Did I say its some kind of a conspiracy? So fork off, bud, go back to your 9/11 thread and stay there please.

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN by what reasons do you believe your knowledge on the subject is superior than the world's doctors and immunologists?

Wikipedia Fool!! ha ha ha ha

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i know people like you and shaolin LOVE to turn your nose up against accepted practice, be all "revolutionary" in how you don't just take what "the man" feeds you, but this is bordering on the ridiculous. until you have a bachelor of medicine, i find your notions of comparing vaccinations to baby food to be quite ridiculous.

Cause its the 'in" thing pkc, its the 'in" thing..

Seriously I agree with Fir3start3r

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It comes down to choice and we choose to not take any chances. Some people might think we're paranoid but that doesn't matter because in the end, it's still our choice and our child.

All of my kids are up to date with their shots and all is well. But that article on the Amish , very interesting..... very interesting indeed.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd Autism is a disorder that normally is 100% genetic. If Magnetonium's family doesn't have anyone on the autistic spectrum, there can be only one reasonable conclusion, IMO. But ok, I'll find you some articles

If you sincerely believe autism is 100% genetic, you should go back and read on autism. Saying that it is 100% genetic is ignorant. First, the cause of autism has not been clearly established. There is some genetic influence yes, but it is not 100% genetic. The mechanisms through which autism develops are being studied. Many environmental influences have been identified, such as the mother incurring in certain activities or ingesting certain substances. Autism is a very complex disorder, I don't think it's properly characterized correctly as 100% genetic.

I'll be awaiting those articles.

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Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

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Originally posted by Magnetonium I dont need to have a bachelor's degree to know common knowledge of nearly 10,000 Canadians who die from preventable hospital errors every year. And many others who die from bad medicines, recalled drugs, etc. Health is too much of an important issue to trust to some beglemoth corporation or the government. People need to ALWAYS keep a sharp eye on this. I am not turning the nose against the accepted methods as much you are trying to make it look. Did I say I was against vaccinations? Did I say its some kind of a conspiracy? So fork off, bud, go back to your 9/11 thread and stay there please.

What do you think those people's fate would've been if they hadn't died in the hospital? Maybe they should've stayed home, I'm sure thy would have fared better there. Now I'm not sure where you're going with your argument, but plain and simple, you have higher chances of surviving with 'mainstream' medicine than any other options.

Surely we should keep checking and questioning in order to keep reducing risks and improving chances of survival. But it has to be responsible questioning. Information has consequences, I can't stress this enough. Many children have suffered greatly due to their parents adherence to no vaccination. These decisions have real consequences.

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Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

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Originally posted by venomX What do you think those people's fate would've been if they hadn't died in the hospital? Maybe they should've stayed home, I'm sure thy would have fared better there. Now I'm not sure where you're going with your argument, but plain and simple, you have higher chances of surviving with 'mainstream' medicine than any other options. Surely we should keep checking and questioning in order to keep reducing risks and improving chances of survival. But it has to be responsible questioning. Information has consequences, I can't stress this enough. Many children have suffered greatly due to their parents adherence to no vaccination. These decisions have real consequences.

PREVENTABLE means these people would have not died if the doctors made the right decision, and not some dumb arrogant moves (tell it to a patient who died last week because the doctor left his operating tools inside).

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

Doctors certainly aren't infallible and one would be a fool to think otherwise.
I have nothing against doctors, they did a wonderful job during my surgery putting the screws in my broken leg, however health prevention is something they've dropped from their forte a while back.
Strange considering in the past, all doctors were also homeopaths.
Now, to get caught up on all the latest pills and drugs, they get taught by the highest kickback pharmaceutical company that sends a rep.
It's not that I don't trust the doctors, it's the business behind the doctors that take advantage of the fact that they're very busy and simply don't have the time to properly research the drugs, etc themselves.
I'm probably going off on a tangent here so I digress.../rant

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"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by Magnetonium PREVENTABLE means these people would have not died if the doctors made the right decision, and not some dumb arrogant moves (tell it to a patient who died last week because the doctor left his operating tools inside).

All I want to know is where you are going with your argument. You saying that we shouldn't go to the hospital? The we should go less? That we should go to the local shaman? What are you saying?

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Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

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Originally posted by Magnetonium I dont need to have a bachelor's degree to know common knowledge of nearly 10,000 Canadians who die from preventable hospital errors every year. And many others who die from bad medicines, recalled drugs, etc. Health is too much of an important issue to trust to some beglemoth corporation or the government. People need to ALWAYS keep a sharp eye on this. I am not turning the nose against the accepted methods as much you are trying to make it look. Did I say I was against vaccinations?

i wasn't asking you for a list of the problems in the inexact science that is medicine. i was asking you by what reasons do you equate immunising infants with feeding them baby food instead of "adult" food? you're making a completely non-expert statement with nothing but bollocks to back it up.

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The way I see it, its dangerous to inject a child with vaccinations at very early age, just like you dont feed the child the food you eat either that early.

back that claim up is all im saying. or tell me why doctors DO immunise infants early on, if its so obviously more dangerous like you are arguing. that's all.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Did I say its some kind of a conspiracy? So fork off, bud, go back to your 9/11 thread and stay there please.

hey, im happy to jump all over your paranoid delusions no matter which thread they're in.

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Look, basically it's a gamble and as much as we have to give it a civilised veneer to make it sound less like gambling, it is. You weigh up the odds on either side and go dashing across that 8 lane free way to take your chances.
The odds of a vaccine going bad are very poor. If it was a horse, you wouldn't even waste $0.50 throwing money on it because it's not going to cross the line.
The odds of getting a childhood disease are also very poor bet and for all the wrong reasons that make them a bad bet, chances are your kid will get one if they don't get the shots.

Then they're going to get sick and a lot of this stuff isn't something that the doctors can just wave a magic jar of pills at if you're out of luck and the kid catches a disease. Most people in western countries really do take their health for granted and they rarely count themselves lucky if their kids survive past the age of 2, indeed it's by far the minority which don't survive that become the unusual case and a great deal of that comes from-
Lifestyle
Diet
Medical care
Vaccinations against preventable diseases
Take a trip up the eastern seaboard of Africa one day, following your mother who's 'hobby' aside from being an orthopaedic surgeon, was jabbing kids with needles in places where health care wasn't a convenient option to be ignored by choice. It's pretty damn easy to see where these things work, the places that don't have this kind of care have mortality rates which are truly staggering. It's why they have so many kids, they just drop like flies every time a decent flu or worse comes through the place, they are not dying, malformed, handicapped or maimed because western doctors are throwing needles at their arse like a dartboard!
No
They get killed and maimed by things like influenza, chicken pox, measles, hepatitis and polio, which are passing out of living memory as a cause of childhood mortality and spastic conditions in your countries.

Now, I don't really hope to change anyone's mind here because some of you seem set in your ways, but vaccines do a great deal more help than harm.
It's your bet and you have to live with it ultimately.

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Originally posted by venomX All I want to know is where you are going with your argument. You saying that we shouldn't go to the hospital? The we should go less? That we should go to the local shaman? What are you saying?

Anyhow, I'd like to wrap up my point on here, I carried away a bit into a different direction. Yes, we need health care / hospitals. Hospitals need improvement and as even though some doctors make terrible mistakes, we have to live with it. We cant just fire the doctors for their mistakes, there will be none left at current pace like that. Something needs to be done, and I dont know what. We all need to be very careful with health and health care, thats my whole point. I dont feel ashamed for stirring up / bringing up the issues, since a lot of people are affected. People need to know, though they cant do much. I agree with everything Firestarter has posted on this thread so far. We need research everything there can be about vaccinations and health issues to be looked into before getting into the grinder - if a mistake or wrong choice is made at the wrong time/place, you cant just press undo. This is not like getting your wallet stolen or losing a job, those things are fixable. Health, when forked up, cant be fixed. There's no second chance here with things like vaccinations and hospital care, for most part. Therefore, we must look at every health article, every statistic, and every little detail with regards to health, medicines, their effects on people, all of this should be in detail front page so that we know exactly where the problems are to make sure other people dont get the same health problems.

In this case, its obvious there's some problems with vaccinations to some children. So this MUST BE ADDRESSED IMMEDIATELY. There should be no "we'll be working on it later and improving it over the time" - health is the most important issue. I am not for just banning or stopping the vaccinations. But efforts and research must be comncetrated to make sure no more children get permanently disabled. Some of you just dont care because its not your child. People always think, well, its not going to happen to me. Hopefully it doesnt. But sitting there and just pretending its all good is not the solution to the problem. Thats something along the lines of my thinking.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Anyhow, I'd like to wrap up my point on here, I carried away a bit into a different direction. Yes, we need health care / hospitals. Hospitals need improvement and as even though some doctors make terrible mistakes, we have to live with it. We cant just fire the doctors for their mistakes, there will be none left at current pace like that. Something needs to be done, and I dont know what. We all need to be very careful with health and health care, thats my whole point. I dont feel ashamed for stirring up / bringing up the issues, since a lot of people are affected. People need to know, though they cant do much. I agree with everything Firestarter has posted on this thread so far. We need research everything there can be about vaccinations and health issues to be looked into before getting into the grinder - if a mistake or wrong choice is made at the wrong time/place, you cant just press undo. This is not like getting your wallet stolen or losing a job, those things are fixable. Health, when forked up, cant be fixed. There's no second chance here with things like vaccinations and hospital care, for most part. Therefore, we must look at every health article, every statistic, and every little detail with regards to health, medicines, their effects on people, all of this should be in detail front page so that we know exactly where the problems are to make sure other people dont get the same health problems. In this case, its obvious there's some problems with vaccinations to some children. So this MUST BE ADDRESSED IMMEDIATELY. There should be no "we'll be working on it later and improving it over the time" - health is the most important issue. I am not for just banning or stopping the vaccinations. But efforts and research must be comncetrated to make sure no more children get permanently disabled. Some of you just dont care because its not your child. People always think, well, its not going to happen to me. Hopefully it doesnt. But sitting there and just pretending its all good is not the solution to the problem. Thats something along the lines of my thinking.

Jesus, are you blind? Have problems reading? There are no problems with vaccinations that can be addressed immediately. What problems should be addressed? Enlighten us, please. I was sure that I pointed out that no research links vaccinations with negative outcomes. The ones that occur due to vaccinations are out of the medical communities control. There is no way of knowing which child might have a potentially aversive reaction to vaccines because those cases are ridiculously rare.

Now, do me a favor, state what problems should be addressed and back them with hard evidence of a casual connection between vaccination an those programs. If not, shut up, you might end up confusing other people about what the real dangers of vaccination are.

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Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

quote:

Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

Last edited by venomX on Jun-22-2007 at 17:59