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Originally posted by shanny Optimism is a beautiful thing that gives you the ability to pull yourself away from any situation because, couldn’t it always be worse? And therefore don’t you have it pretty good? Have faith in goodness. It is the most genuine of all things. Whenever things appear to be going terribly wrong, whenever you are completely down on yourself, and thinking that things couldn’t be worse, stop for a minute and recognize that actually, yes, things can always be worse. Infinitely worse. They can also be infinitely better. These two thoughts actually work together. Things can always be worse. Realizing this gives you the ability to rationalize your placement, and understand that you don’t have it that bad. Then thinking that things can be better gives you the greatest gift of all. Hope. At no point do you have to stop having hope. Hope for all things better. This hope is what I call Optimism, and is what you can have fun being faithful to from now until infinity.

so true.

Excellent post Josh!
I really enjoyed reading through that.

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Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

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Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded

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Originally posted by EvilTree Hope for the best, prepare for the worst?

how i like to usualy live and think.

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Hands down Shanny, this is the post of the year.

Its all too familiar where I find the general population just can't seem to have a "deep" conversation and whilst this thread didn't go too far... as I'm sure you had prepared for... I most definately thank you for your indepth thoughts.

Cheers

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Originally posted by |3 |_ @ Z 3 |) Its all too familiar where I find the general population just can't seem to have a "deep" conversation

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Originally posted by |3 |_ @ Z 3 |) Its all too familiar where I find the general population just can't seem to have a "deep" conversation

Then again, there seems to be no shortage of stoners who think that just about every question containing the words "why" or "really" is "deep". As in, "is there really a difference between Fudgesicles and flashlights? Why?".

Now this thread actually had a lot to say. The problem is, as Shanny pointed out right at the beginning, it's an essay, not a discussion question. Most deep discussions start off with small, open-ended or controversial questions or statements. In order to respond to this in a meaningful way I'd have to write an entire essay myself, one which I know will be read by few people if any.

I will play devil's advocate here and give my trite response for the sake of opening up a real debate here. Josh, there are certainly some good points here, but it's written largely in emotional language and makes heavy use of the Argumentum ad Consequentiam (Appeal to Consequences) fallacy. Believing this will result in a better life, so you should believe it. Imagine not being able to be hurt. That is all well and good, but is there any evidence that these are natural and inevitable consequences? You've certainly omitted some of the obvious disadvantages of perpetual optimism:

- Optimism is inseparable from trust. People are instinctively self-centered and at least some will take advantage of blind trust.

- Optimism is optimism about one's own abilities. It can - and will - lead a person to set false expectations with people who may be depending on him. This isn't about breaking promises, or making ones which can't be kept, but assuming the best in the face of uncertainty when the best outcome is rarely the actual one.

- Unrelenting optimism hurts a person's ability to learn from failures by making it more difficult to accept that a failure even occurred, much less quantify the consequences of one. If there's always an upside, why do things differently next time?

Then again, maybe it's all a moot point, since the main idea that this essay seemed to be driving at (especially near the end) was altruism, not optimism. I could say plenty about that, but that is another debate entirely.

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Originally posted by shanny I completely understand what you are saying and think that is valid. I should clarify that I don't think that me or anyone else is completely capable of actually doing this without living in that true state of constant meditation that is too unpractical to do and continue to live in the physical world. It is the idea of progressing on a journey with that as the goal that you have in mind and taking pleasure in the steps you take to get there trying to become more and more at that level the entire time.

Ok, with that I agree

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Everything starts with having a firm sense of self and the confidence to act like yourself under any circumstance. It is not to say that your sense of self is a stagnant thing that you must always be trying to be, it will be a continually evolving thing that is slightly abstract in nature but very genuine in feeling. Staying truthful to yourself allows the person to have supreme confidence in all of the decisions that they make. Many other ways of operating obsess far too much over others views about them, and whether those people like to admit it or not, to a certain extent their actions are being dictated by the people surrounding them. Staying truthful to yourself is a way of giving you the power to dictate your actions. Rather than be concerned with petty differences, accept the fact that people will have a problem with you sometimes. For Someone who is very concerned with things that you aren’t such as image or appearance it will be hard for them to accept that you do not give it more thought than you do. Some people will not like you. This is not a bad thing. Instead look on it as a sense of freedom, where you have been given the unbelievable ability to know exactly what to do in any possible scenario. Act only in accordance with what you believe to be truest to yourself and you can never go wrong. It is only when external things come in to play and begin changing the way that you operate that you truthfully get into trouble.

This is a concept that has helped me the transition from my childhood and teenage years into my "coming of age" years. From as far back as I can remember until about the age of 18, I was always extremely concerned with what other people thought of me. I was afraid to speak in social settings because I was afraid that what I was going to say was going to be laughed, or that I would be put down. I frequently second guessed myself, and I even aspired to act like popular people within my social surroundings. This strategy didn’t exactly bode well. I quickly realized that people act negatively towards those who act in such a way to please others, instead of being true to themselves.

One day, I asked myself why these other people who I was trying to act like were better than me, and why what they had to say was more important than what I had to say. I soon realized that what I was just as good as everyone else around me, if not better. This realization that I had is the most fundamental reason for the way I am today. When I finally started acting true to myself, I became a lot happier of a person.

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Instead treat it as a process, with that as the goal at the end of the road. Look at the way you live your life and see how much more enjoyable things can become when all of a sudden things aren’t capable of hurting you anymore. Imagine being able to go through some of the most tragic events of all time and feel no guilt or remorse what so ever because you were so caught up in the current moment. It gives you the ability to progress towards infinite happiness.

I’ve heard you elaborate on this more, and I understand the usefulness of this concept, but I think too much emphasis is being put on the present moment. From my understanding, you are saying that is better to live in the moment, than dwell on the past, or worry about the future. You are also saying that you should concentrate on the positive things in the present moment, and not dwell on negative things in the past or in the future. It seems that you are suggesting that this is a path to happiness.

Let me address each assertion separately. On the upside of “living in the moment”, you are doing something that many others in this day and age fail to do. When you’re in elementary school, you can’t wait to be in high school, when you’re in high school, you can’t wait to be in post-secondary, when you’re in post-secondary, you can’t wait to be in grad-school, when you’re in grad-school, you can’t wait to be done and find a job, when you’ve found the job, you can’t wait until you’ve saved up enough to buy a house, then you can’t wait to get married, then you can’t wait to have kids. Next thing you know, you’re 65. What now?

However, living too much in the moment has serious consequences and disadvantages. For one, I think there is a lot to be said in remembering the past, your history, where you came from, etc. Avoiding the past will cause you to make mistakes that others have already made that could have been easily avoided if you had just taken some time to learn about them. As for the future, if you ignore it and spend all your time enjoying the pleasantries of the present day, you could be unaware of impending trouble that could have been easily avoided if you planned ahead. Furthermore, you could improve “the present day” in the future if you plan for it. To conclude the response to the first assertion, I think the path to happiness lies in an equal emphasis put on each time frame: past, present and future.

As for the second assertion, I believe that concentrating only on the positive aspects of the present moment in order to avoid negative emotions associated with painful times in our lives is a dangerous strategy. Accepting bad times for what they are, and dealing with the negative emotions as they come will bode better than brushing those negative emotions under the carpet and thinking happy thoughts. One example is if you are unhappy with something in your life; perhaps a friendship or an intimate relationship. The other person might be doing things or saying things that are bothering you. I have found that it is much more effective to deal with the problems as they come. If you think happy thoughts and forget about what’s bothering you, whatever is bothering you will not go away, and will resurface in a much more significant way in the future. In the example of a problem with a friend or a girl/boyfriend, chances are that the conflicts you have been avoiding along the way are going to end up in one big cumulative argument that has relationship ending potential.

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How this relates to being able to let things slide is very simple. Time and time again there will be situations in which you can make a personal sacrifice to do a group of people a greater good. A split second example when it may take you swallowing some of your dignity to allow a collective group of people to be more comfortable in a situation. You should look at this as in your best interest too because even though it is you making the sacrifice you are advancing the interests of the group collectively to the maximum potential. Here you are doing a sort of cost benefits analysis similar to John Stuart Mill’s argument for Utility.

Although I agree with this, I think that conflict can still be maintained between two individuals, doing minimal harm to a group, so long as the two parties involved do everything they can to minimize discomfort the group might experience relating to the conflict at hand. While group coherence is important, standing up for yourself, and making people realize that they’ve wronged you when they clearly have is also very important.

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Optimism is a beautiful thing that gives you the ability to pull yourself away from any situation because, couldn’t it always be worse? And therefore don’t you have it pretty good? Have faith in goodness. It is the most genuine of all things. Whenever things appear to be going terribly wrong, whenever you are completely down on yourself, and thinking that things couldn’t be worse, stop for a minute and recognize that actually, yes, things can always be worse. Infinitely worse. They can also be infinitely better. These two thoughts actually work together. Things can always be worse. Realizing this gives you the ability to rationalize your placement, and understand that you don’t have it that bad. Then thinking that things can be better gives you the greatest gift of all. Hope. At no point do you have to stop having hope. Hope for all things better. This hope is what I call Optimism, and is what you can have fun being faithful to from now until infinity.

I really like this paragraph. Especially the part about knowing that things could always be worse, but also knowing that things could always be better. Whenever going through tough times, I have always thought that things could be worse, but I don’t usually think about how better things could be.

I know I’m disagreeing with a lot of what you’re saying, but as someone who is more often a pessimist than an optimist, you knew I would have a lot to say about this subject.

So in one concluding retort on the over-arching concept of optimism, and to optimists who accuse me that I complain too much, I will quote one of my friends who has also been afflicted with this unfair accusation, “Seeing the negative side in things is only pointing out the way that those things can be improved.” Although there are many people who are always negative, who don’t look at the positive side of things and are therefore unhappy, unhappiness is not a necessary condition for pointing out the negatives in a situation. Pointing out the negatives is only a path to a higher level of happiness than that of optimists who settle the mediocrity of the way things are.

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Originally posted by The Highroller

Stop procrastinating and go back to work, Graham

It was an interesting read though

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quote:

Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

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Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded

Wow, I actually didn't think this post would end up going this route with some good an thoughtful arguments (hence my smart ass reply earlier). While I agree with some of what you have said I would say I disagree with it more.

I was going to write a long response with quotes like everyone else, however I just don't have the time and would actually rather discuss this in person over drinks sometime.


Thanks for the interesting read.

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