quote:

Originally posted by Shamez214 Nope.

thanks

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Vernato

k, I'm an idiot on the first one, but the fact that griffey was in center still earns him points, and when you factor in the fact that griffey won a gold glove every season but his rookie one (until 2000), fielding still falls well in his favor. Plus, gold gloves only compare players to about 90 others per year, so it means you're in the top 3% of outfielders. Realistically, it's probably much larger, after injuries & guys who get plugged in left 'cuz they can't throw. So, while Griffey's Gold Glove credentials still outweigh those of Bonds, Barry was NEVER considered an all-time great defensive outfielder. Base-stealer, absolutely. Home-run hitter, based on consistency, I guess. Not fielder, though, as Griffey was.

As for strike-outs, when you have no protection in the line-up, you get walked. Compare:

http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/sea...day_lineups.jsp

http://pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/p...s.jsp?content=4
http://sanfrancisco.giants.mlb.com/...day_lineups.jsp

Statistical onslaught to come later

The only thing about the 90's stats in reference to Barroid is that you can't count 1998 and 1999. Those 2 years he was on the juice. So those will distort the stats. Anyway, I think Bonds was the better player than Junior by a hair. However, I would say though that CF is a tougher position to play than LF. Also, Junior missed a ton of games from 1994-1996 which also would hinder the comparison of cumulative stats. Nevertheless, Barroid had more pure dominance. It's close though.

Frank Thomas was a DH. You lose points with me that way. You just do. Same goes for David Ortiz and the MVP voting last year. I'd still have to vote him in yes. He was always a huge dude and hitting homers, don't suspect he roided. He never had a spike in stats.

Thing is, before 1998 Barroid wasn't in the discussion as the best player ever. He wasn't even included on the all century team which was voted in 1999. He was a hall of famer still but not in discussion as the greatest player ever. Roids did that. Oh I forgot, he's a piece of shit.

No matter, A Rod is gonna hit 850 homers.

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quote:

Originally posted by Member of X The only thing about the 90's stats in reference to Barroid is that you can't count 1998 and 1999.

I can't remember when it was, exactly. It may have been at some point in 1998, but was definitely on them by the start of '99, since it was spurred by McGwire & Sosa's run (based on a conversation he had at, ironically enough, Griffey's house in '98). That, of course, also requires that you believe he was completely clean prior to that.

By the way, the best player ever starts and ends with Babe Ruth. Dude won 94 games in his career as a starting pitcher with a lifetime ERA of 2.28. 5th best ERA in the history. 148 games started, 107 complete games!

Oh yeah, 1 HR per 11.7 at bats. Only cheater McGwire beats him.

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quote:

Originally posted by inconspicuous I can't remember when it was, exactly. It may have been at some point in 1998, but was definitely on them by the start of '99, since it was spurred by McGwire & Sosa's run (based on a conversation he had at, ironically enough, Griffey's house in '98). That, of course, also requires that you believe he was completely clean prior to that.

Book game of shadows says it was sometime in the 1998 season because he was jealous over the pub that Say it Ain't Sosa and Big Mac were getting.

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Yeah, Frank Thomas probably wasn't on anything, imo. He was just always huge and had an enormous frame, and never really looked like he was jacked up on something. I wouldn't be shocked if I was wrong, but if that's the case, then he had to be spending all winter eating his way back to a normal-looking shape, 'cuz he was always a bit...round.

By the way, he was primarily a first baseman before he got old, and really could field. That was actually one of the more surprising attributes of his. He wasn't J.T. Snow, but he was a very good fielder, especially for his size.

That said, I don't even think about him when it comes to a discussion of the greatest players of that era. He was an incredible power hitter, and, as I mentioned, an above average fielder, but he had a few fatal flaws as a hitter. He was almost a perfect incarnation of Cerrano from Major League--throw him anything that broke, low & outside, and he'd embarrass himself. I wouldn't put him far above Mo Vaughn for a few of those years, just in terms of the intimidation & power that they both relied on. On top of that, he was never a good teammate, an attribute that certainly contributed to his teams' lack of success (his only ring is from a season in which he didn't play, and got banned from the clubhouse while he was injured).

quote:

Originally posted by Member of X By the way, the best player ever starts and ends with Babe Ruth. Dude won 94 games in his career as a starting pitcher with a lifetime ERA of 2.28. 5th best ERA in the history. 148 games started, 107 complete games! Oh yeah, 1 HR per 11.7 at bats. Only cheater McGwire beats him.

agreed. This is one of the many reasons I want to slap Tim Kurkjian upside the head.

quote:

Originally posted by Member of X Book game of shadows says it was sometime in the 1998 season because he was jealous over the pub that Say it Ain't Sosa and Big Mac were getting.

yeah, that's what I was referring to, but I can't remember if he actually then started before the end of the season.

quote:

Originally posted by Member of X By the way, the best player ever starts and ends with Babe Ruth. Dude won 94 games in his career as a starting pitcher with a lifetime ERA of 2.28. 5th best ERA in the history. 148 games started, 107 complete games! Oh yeah, 1 HR per 11.7 at bats. Only cheater McGwire beats him.

we all know he was the best player ever...

BUT, Griffey was going to be better than Ruth, if he stayed healthy... but he didn't, so Ruth > Griffey...

but, A-Rod > Ruth in 10 years, and we all can agree on that, no?

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quote:

Originally posted by King Ecnal we all know he was the best player ever... BUT, Griffey was going to be better than Ruth, if he stayed healthy... but he didn't, so Ruth > Griffey... but, A-Rod > Ruth in 10 years, and we all can agree on that, no?

i'd say pujols is a better player than A-Rod but he's stuck on a shitty team with no protection behind him.

imagine Pujols in a yankees line-up. he would have a monster year.