I still don't see any difference between the LA riots and the French riots...are blacks in America segregating themselves and not assimilating?!

I still say that most of these riots can be explained by social issues. You say "why dont they just get an education and get a good job" but if it were that easy they probably would. It's a by product of the society we all live in that there will always be people stuck at the bottom of society, sure some can break out of the situation but they are exceptions rather than the norm. Immigrant communities tend to be among the poorest and therefore tend to be more prone to these kinds of actions than the "native" (ie white) population. But that doesn't mean all whites are rich - a hell of a lot find themselves in the same situation as other poorer communities and guess what? They are just as prone to committing the kind of actions as the immigrant communities you mentioned in your op. Poor people facing economic or other social problems, when concious, are prone to rioting. And race, religion or nationality has no baring on that...

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley I still don't see any difference between the LA riots and the French riots...are blacks in America segregating themselves and not assimilating?! I still say that most of these riots can be explained by social issues. You say "why dont they just get an education and get a good job" but if it were that easy they probably would. It's a by product of the society we all live in that there will always be people stuck at the bottom of society, sure some can break out of the situation but they are exceptions rather than the norm. Immigrant communities tend to be among the poorest and therefore tend to be more prone to these kinds of actions than the "native" (ie white) population. But that doesn't mean all whites are rich - a hell of a lot find themselves in the same situation as other poorer communities and guess what? They are just as prone to committing the kind of actions as the immigrant communities you mentioned in your op. Poor people facing economic or other social problems, when concious, are prone to rioting. And race, religion or nationality has no baring on that...

Watch a movie called Pursuit of Happyness. It will illustrate my point. A black man out of a poor community who becomes a head of a powerful brokerage firm. TRUE STORY. Look at what he did.

It doesnt matter. What I've been through personally, I went through povery when I was kicked out of my parents house. But I didnt resort to drugs or alcohol, crime or giving up - which is what many poor people resort to. I refused to embrace crime or violence. I came out of my shithole and now I am in my last year of college with pretty dam good marks. I worked my ass off.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Watch a movie called Pursuit of Happyness. It will illustrate my point. A black man out of a poor community who becomes a head of a powerful brokerage firm. TRUE STORY. Look at what he did. It doesnt matter. What I've been through personally, I went through povery when I was kicked out of my parents house. But I didnt resort to drugs or alcohol, crime or giving up - which is what many poor people resort to. I refused to embrace crime or violence. I came out of my shithole and now I am in my last year of college with pretty dam good marks. I worked my ass off.

Great. Two people. Surely representative of the entire working class population of Earth. I take everything I said back

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Great. Two people. Surely representative of the entire working class population of Earth. I take everything I said back

Resorting to drugs, alcohol, violence crime and gangs - is it the fault of governments for that? Or do these people choose to do that. Why is it our fault for people making wrong choices for themselves?

I guarantee you that if these people tried hard and long enough, they would have succeeded and built happy lives. Its not the duty of the government to push these people to do something aboout their lives.

Education is the key, I admit. But many students from poor neighbourhoods choose to drop out. Surely many have reasons for it. My brother who lives with parents is like the biggest gangster that I know, he long ago forgot his true roots. He could hardly care about school, and instead is involved with the wrong people, and I can see him ending up living in the scrums of poor neighbourhoods selling drugs.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

I'm not neccessarily trying to dish out blame, just a general observation that the people who tend to riot come from poorer back grounds, and it is their economic/social situation that leads them down that path, rather than race, religion or nationality (as you were trying to suggest earlier). That's all.

Of course, governments can help improve society by helping to create environments where employment is high, poverty is low and educational standards are high. Where economic policies don't address (or ignore) crime/discontent/etc will rise and it is the poorest echlons of society that will react the most.

There simply isn't room in our society for everyone to have a well paid job (despite the fact that it is possible for everyone to have high standards of education) and therefore, despite how educated a society is, there will always be a fairly large proportion of the population that make up the poorest section of society - that cannot be avoided, ever, but in order to defend the economic society we live in, many people simply ignore that reality and attempt to blame societies ills on other factors - like immigrant communities being poor not because our society demands a certain amount of poor, but because they don't integrate.

Whilst ever there are poor people there will always be problems like discontented citizens rioting for whatever reason, and it's just coinsidence that certain groups are more prone to being poor than others...

Surely 100 years ago things were different and immigrants and poor people never stood a chance at rising up in standards of living. Today its all different. Everyone has equal rights and opportunity in developed world to establish what they want to achieve. I know in Turkey or Morocco or even Russia its probably highly unlikely. Today they can in the West, if they try hard enough. They have nothing to lose, and everything to gain. Living in prosperous countries with limitless opportunities is enough of encouragement - many people in distant oppressed lands would die for a chance to build a happy life in the West. They fight for scrums of bread, for Christ's sakes in Africa, Asia. I've personally seen how hard immigrants in Canada work their tails off and succeed. Its not easy, but the end result is what matters.

Its easy, on the other hand, sitting in the slums and not do anything about it and blame the government for not pushing people around. These people should be ashamed of themselves for living in countries with limitless possibilities - they squander that chance and opportunity by instead living in their shitholes (no offense) and then pitting their problems on us. Its very insulting to all the people who have worked hard to achieve a good life. Nothing's easy in life, success and happyness doesnt fall into your lap.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Watch a movie called Pursuit of Happyness. It will illustrate my point. A black man out of a poor community who becomes a head of a powerful brokerage firm. TRUE STORY. Look at what he did. It doesnt matter. What I've been through personally, I went through povery when I was kicked out of my parents house. But I didnt resort to drugs or alcohol, crime or giving up - which is what many poor people resort to. I refused to embrace crime or violence. I came out of my shithole and now I am in my last year of college with pretty dam good marks. I worked my ass off.

Mags, why did your parents kick you out of the house? do you still talk with them?

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Surely 100 years ago things were different and immigrants and poor people never stood a chance at rising up in standards of living. Today its all different. Everyone has equal rights and opportunity in developed world to establish what they want to achieve. I know in Turkey or Morocco or even Russia its probably highly unlikely. Today they can in the West, if they try hard enough. They have nothing to lose, and everything to gain. Living in prosperous countries with limitless opportunities is enough of encouragement - many people in distant oppressed lands would die for a chance to build a happy life in the West. They fight for scrums of bread, for Christ's sakes in Africa, Asia. I've personally seen how hard immigrants in Canada work their tails off and succeed. Its not easy, but the end result is what matters. Its easy, on the other hand, sitting in the slums and not do anything about it and blame the government for not pushing people around. These people should be ashamed of themselves for living in countries with limitless possibilities - they squander that chance and opportunity by instead living in their shitholes (no offense) and then pitting their problems on us. Its very insulting to all the people who have worked hard to achieve a good life. Nothing's easy in life, success and happyness doesnt fall into your lap.

So you're telling me that our economic system can accommodate 100% people in good well paid jobs?

And funnily enough a hell of a lot of people from ethnic minorities have become very successful/wealthy

You just seem to have your head stuck in the clouds mate, with little grasp on reality - here are the facts:

Many many many members of ethnic minorities across Europe have made a success out of their lives

Many many many "native" people live in poor areas and have made nothing of their lives (and have taken part in their fair share of riots throughout history)

Our society cannot accommodate 100% of the population in well paid jobs - in plain English: Nowhere near everyone can be a success like you are ordering poor people to be

George, at some point, people also have to be responsible for themselves.
There's a sense of entitlement that stems from 'recent' (I'm going to say 'recent' = 1st/2nd generation because you're right, some are 'nationalist' by loose definiation) immigrants because some expect handouts from the government and solve all their problems.
That's the worse thing they could be doing.
They should be expecting very little from their government except the very basics UNTIL they can stand on their own two feet.
Please explain to me, as a taxpayer, why I should be paying for someone on the dole that is contributing nothing to the society in which I live?
The expectation should be that recent immigrants integrate with their new surroundings not immigrants making demands asking for handouts and re-creating their world in which they just left.

Having said that, I know that's not that cause for ALL the riots, but if there are 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants who still haven't gotten their feet on the ground one has to question why.
It's either the government hasn't done enough to help them out or the recent immigrants can't be bothered to do anything until the government solves their problem for them.
Both IMHO are faulty and again IMHO, the onus should be on the recent immigrant to take control of their situation in an ethical manner and go through the proper legal channels as laid out by their country of choice.
Mag and I have given enough examples to explain that it IS possible to make a life in a new country through sweat equity.

In short, don't count on the government for anything (especially economic solutions).

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Last edited by Fir3start3r on Oct-27-2007 at 16:41

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley So you're telling me that our economic system can accommodate 100% people in good well paid jobs? And funnily enough a hell of a lot of people from ethnic minorities have become very successful/wealthy You just seem to have your head stuck in the clouds mate, with little grasp on reality - here are the facts: Many many many members of ethnic minorities across Europe have made a success out of their lives Many many many "native" people live in poor areas and have made nothing of their lives (and have taken part in their fair share of riots throughout history) Our society cannot accommodate 100% of the population in well paid jobs - in plain English: Nowhere near everyone can be a success like you are ordering poor people to be

Yes, you're absolutely right. BUT, there will always be many people who will refuse to work hard to make their life better. Trust me on this one. There are a lot of lazy, unrganized people and people with no purpose in life. These will fill your void for the need of the bottom class. Unfortunately, some good people will also fall in, our society is far from perfect, even some rich people go bankrupt and lose everything. The poor people who really really wanted to get a good standard of living and who approached it with the right attitude and the right direction - they will move up, I guarantee you. Watch the movie that I recommended to you. You'll like it. Will Smith's best movie.

To be fair, you're right, its not just the immigrants' fault. Its obvious when you compare North American and European immigrants you notice there's gotta be some other issues. There's a fault of governments and officials in Europe for sure for not dealing with the situation properly, just like its obvious that Canadian native/aboriginal populations have high poverty and unemployment issues not because they choose (righfully) to live separately, but because the government refuses to pay its duties and respect to aboriginal people and to help them the way they MUST DO because aboriginal people have done so much for Canada and we owe them eternally. However, the aboriginal people in Canada - its their land and they want to protect their culture - so we should actively help them out because this was all their land at some point and they fought for us against American attempts to take Canada.

However, aboriginal issues and immigrant issues are completely separate otherwise, so thats as far as similarities go.

quote:

Originally posted by ams.rld Mags, why did your parents kick you out of the house? do you still talk with them?

When I was in high school, I had tough time with girls, school and work. I finished high school, though not spectacular results, but I didnt fail anything. I needed some time to reorganize myself and get on the right track, pick the right choice for post-secondary school. My parents (hardline Eastern European influence) refused to listen to my excuses and didnt want to give me a couple of years. They demanded I go to Canadian military within 4 months, which I wasnt ready for. So they gave me 4 months to move out. Its now been 4 years since I moved out, though I reconciliated with my parents since. Things with my parents got back on track after I started college. They can see I have some purpose, and I think I might end up moving back to save rent because I dont want another OSAP loan.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

Last edited by Magnetonium on Oct-26-2007 at 20:28

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium ... and I think I might end up moving back to save rent because I dont want another OSAP loan.

Good call, OSAP is a monkey on your back you don't want...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."