shaolin_Z I think you are specifically focused on the current US situation? Which I think is different. "Supporting the troops" is really being pushed into supporting a folly of a war in the middle east.

I'd agree with your points based on that.

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If you can read this, I'm seriously fucking bored.

I'm no fan of most political motivations for war, but I still think there is something noble about sacrificing your own personal safety and well-being for what you believe in. Granted, this current escapade in Iraq is destroying the notion that American troops volunteer to fight for causes that they support. But that hasn't always been the case - it would be tough to argue that the men and women who joined the armed services in World War II didn't do so to fight for an ideal on the behalf of the entire nation.

Vietnam muddied that ideal, and the idea that soldiers only go to war to fight for just causes. Maybe it's because I watched Gettysburg on Sunday (first time I'd seen it), but there is something noble about being willing to sacrifice your life for a cause that you truly believe is just. I know that's a double-edged sword; after all, don't Islamic terrorists believe they are fighting for the righteous side? And who's to say one side is more righteous than the other? That depends entirely on the context provided by which side of the line you stand. But the idea of sacrificing your life for a cause is something that is completely alien to present-day America, because it's difficult to find a true cause worth dying for. And for that reason alone, I respect those veterans who were willing to put their own lives on hold for a cause in any case. I may never understand it, but I can respect it.

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quote:

Robert "Bob" Upshur Woodward (born March 26, 1943) is assistant managing editor of The Washington Post. While an investigative reporter for that newspaper, Woodward, working with his co-employee Carl Bernstein helped uncover the Watergate scandal that led to President Richard Nixon's resignation. Woodward has written 12 best-selling non-fiction books and has twice contributed reporting to efforts that collectively earned the Post and its National Reporting staff a Pulitzer Prize.

Source: Wikipedia

"Military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy.” - Henry Kissinger [quoted by Bob Woodward, “The Final Days”]

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"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I'm no fan of most political motivations for war, but I still think there is something noble about sacrificing your own personal safety and well-being for what you believe in.

Then you'd better start respecting every poor sucker who straps on some dynamite in the name of Allah to take down the colonizing oppressor.

Everything's got a spin, some just have government mandates and approval for murder.

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Originally posted by DJ Shibby Then you'd better start respecting every poor sucker who straps on some dynamite in the name of Allah to take down the colonizing oppressor. Everything's got a spin, some just have government mandates and approval for murder.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I know that's a double-edged sword; after all, don't Islamic terrorists believe they are fighting for the righteous side? And who's to say one side is more righteous than the other? That depends entirely on the context provided by which side of the line you stand.

I figured I was walking into that trap, and it's difficult to articulate the distinction in my mind, but I think it is disingenous to compare an act deliberately targeting a civilian population with the role of the military, which, until recently, could never be construed as being primarily targeted against non-combatants.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I figured I was walking into that trap, and it's difficult to articulate the distinction in my mind, but I think it is disingenous to compare an act deliberately targeting a civilian population with the role of the military, which, until recently, could never be construed as being primarily targeted against non-combatants.

Perhaps because it's highly subjective to begin with?

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Perhaps because it's highly subjective to begin with?

I was more thinking because I am tired and not very good with words, but I'll concede that it is subjective to a point. But I really do think it is disingenuous to equate soldiers fighting for their country with a suicide bomber.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I was more thinking because I am tired and not very good with words, but I'll concede that it is subjective to a point. But I really do think it is disingenuous to equate soldiers fighting for their country with a suicide bomber.

Again, that's a subjective statement.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Again, that's a subjective statement.

Opinions inherently are.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r And for your information there shaolin_Z, Canadians were NEVER conscripted (minus one time in 1917), they all volunteered. And this includes WWII. You talk about being lazy and ignorant, trying doing some research next time before talking a country's military's history you no nothing about....

Canadians were conscripted after a vote in 1917, when the casualties list got too high. This was generally accepted by most Canadians, except Quebecois. (And a lot of Quebecois against conscription applied for exemption, and in most cases, got it)

Conscription also happened during WW2. Not sure exactly when it started, but the original idea of conscription in this period was for homeland defence and not for overseas duties (which was volunteer only). These conscriptees were called 'Zombies' because of precisely that reason that they were not sent overseas.
This got changed in 1944 again when more men were needed, but by the time that the Zombies arrived in Europe, the war was nearly over.

Having said that, there must be some sort of collective brainwashing going on because during WW1, some towns had something like 90% of eligible men volunteer to join the military. (And the government didn't have to tell them to join, at least in the first few years of the war)

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quote:

Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

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Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On What does it take to leave your kids fatherless but for the sole purpose of killing some strangers who wear a different uniform than yourself?

It takes guts, and the determination to strike a blow against a regime that murdered 9 million innocent people. War is sometimes necessary, and Shaolin I could not disagree with you more. Every country tends to reflect the moral values of the people within it. Some cultures have radically different values that breed conflict and violence. If you share the values of your country (freedom, tolerance, democracy, etc), you should stand behind those who are committed to defending those values. I understand your anger because we've had very little DEFENSE recently. Most modern wars have been offensive...very unnecessary and tragic. By all means, oppose the politicians when they send the troops into unjustified conflicts...Do what you can to change attitudes and rally opposition to war, but don't oppose the troops themselves. They will be your last line of defense if we ever face a true danger.

Last edited by Capitalizt on Jul-25-2008 at 01:11