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Originally posted by PETRAN Well, "The Field" have a sound which can be described as "minimal trance". They call it "neo-trance"-in reality it is minimal techno with a few more arpeggios giving it a "trancey" feel. Their sound contains the typical dry minimalistic metallic bits and at times all these microscopic clicky/glitchy sounds side be side to simple melodic arpeggiated lines, so in a way it resembles what you say. I loved his album- "From Here We Go Sublime". "Kaito" could kinda fall in that category as well. Ofcourse true "glitch-trance" doesn't exist but it could be an interesting idea...

Thanks for the recommendation, I never heard of The Field, gotta try listening to those tracks. I've heard of Kaito, they're more like very melodic chilled stuff - I'm not entirely sure why is that being labelled as "neo-trance".

Glitch+trance would have a bit of problem because glitch is often about coming up with weird, broken patterns that come up unexpectedly, while trance is more about an hypnotic, repetitive layering of synths - these are two opposite approaches to music that could clash badly. However, if one could do a glitchy repetitive loop with loads of those micro-clicks, then build a trance track on top of it, that could be awesome. At least that's the idea in my mind. I wouldn't go with blatant harsh arpeggios, despite the fact that they're pretty much glitchy synths, because I usually dislike them.

I wish I had any talent at producing and composing music, so I could take these ideas and make something out of it, heh.

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Originally posted by basilisk Double no. What a music is and what we call it are two different things. It just so happens that the popular press (with the help of bigshots like Paul Oakenfold) jumped on a new sound that was coming out in 1994 or so, assigned it the name "Goa trance" by association with the beach parties of India, where hippie ex-pats had been melding different styles of music together to achieve entrancing effects for years already. If we had a time machine and could flash back into the past to hear what was played in Goa in the early part of the nineties it would NOT be what we call "Goa trance" today. In fact, it was a composite of different styles, from Sven Vath to Tangerine Dream, mixed in with old stoner rock, emerging electronic styles, and more besides. When you look throughout Usenet groups and other locales for instances of "Goa trance" in the early nineties period, people are referring to a feeling more than a rigidly defined genre of EDM. That came later, when the UK press juxtaposed terminology with actual sounds (as with the Digital Alchemy compilation) and the term thereby entered into common use and mutated from its original meaning. Technically, it's all "psychedelic trance," but psytrance didn't enter into common usage until people began to get fed-up with how the emerging movement was used and then discarded by the upper crust of EDM culture. When label groups like Flying Rhino began to explore new sonic pathways in 1997 and beyond, they retooled their image and disposed of dated associations with Hindu deities, mandalas, fractals, and all the other trappings that signified "Goa trance" in 1995-1996. In some ways this was a quest for legitimacy; the gravy train had rolled to a stop and it was time to pursue some fresh ideas by that time. Psytrance, in 1997-1999, became the de facto neutralized standard descriptor of the kind of music Flying Rhino, TIP, Matsuri, Blue Room, and other important labels were in the business of promoting. In this time there was a distancing from old terminology, but in recent years the tide has turned, and far from being different things, Goa trance and psytrance are now considered to be one and the same--albeit different in the particulars. To put it bluntly, Goa trance is both a style and a time period within psychedelic trance.

Well, re-reading this post carefully i don't agree with you 1000% lol. I have to say that the term "psy" didn't follow the term "goa" this is completely wrong. I can understand that today people refer to the term "goa" in order to describe the psy-trance (yes the psy-trance!) music of the early-mid 90s. Truth is that during the 90s the two terms were used interchangeably in order to refer to a specific (identical) group of musicians/music/labels/parties etc. also the package of the psy-trance compilation that i own (tantrance-a trip to psychedelic trance) is full of hinduistic pictures and stuff! So yeah psy and goa were identical (at least during the 90s, they may had been seperated after 2000 i don't know about that) and as a result,they refered to the same musicians/music and they deployed the same symbols (that is both hinduistic and alien etc.)imagery and style

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Originally posted by noikeee Thanks for the recommendation, I never heard of The Field, gotta try listening to those tracks. I've heard of Kaito, they're more like very melodic chilled stuff - I'm not entirely sure why is that being labelled as "neo-trance". Glitch+trance would have a bit of problem because glitch is often about coming up with weird, broken patterns that come up unexpectedly, while trance is more about an hypnotic, repetitive layering of synths - these are two opposite approaches to music that could clash badly. However, if one could do a glitchy repetitive loop with loads of those micro-clicks, then build a trance track on top of it, that could be awesome. At least that's the idea in my mind. I wouldn't go with blatant harsh arpeggios, despite the fact that they're pretty much glitchy synths, because I usually dislike them. I wish I had any talent at producing and composing music, so I could take these ideas and make something out of it, heh.

What you describe in the second paragraph kinda describes the sound of the Field! Seriously listen to "From Here We go Sublime" in beatport, its great (and i think its very different from the more chilled sound of Kaito, more interesting and refreshing IMO). Arpeggios are not always "harsh", lol, (as in modern epic trance) they can in fact be comprised of a simple 3 or 4-line note sequence or something. Trance music always contained arpeggios (right from 1992, listen to classic trance like cosmic baby, resistance d, visions of shiva, microglobe etc.) and this is in fact one of the main characteristics (possibly the most improtant one) that distinquished trance from techno in the early-mid 90s.

Also i don't think that one needs to know a lot of music theory in order to create an EDM tune (especially one which would contain the word "glitch" in it!). I would say that "technical/engineering" aspects about how synths and music software (like "Cubase" or "logic") work are more important. "Not knowing a lot about music" could be an excuse really!(the real one being "im too lazy to learn the stuff that i need in order to create music"). So, why not buy (download lol) some music software (i would say to start with "reason" which is rather user-friendly), learn a few basic stuff in the net about music theory and provide us with some fantastic "glitch trance" tunes?

It was interchangeable throughout the nineties to a certain extent... namely that the vast increase of psychedelic trance listeners were typically brought in by the popularization of "Goa trance," which accounts for how strongly favoured the term was in 1995-1997. Afterwards the tide turns and many listeners began to leave it aside for reasons I mentioned (reclaiming artistic identity, dissociation from marketing hype, not wishing to be boxed in, etc.).

I don't think anything like a critical consensus existed prior to 1994/1995... in 1993, for instance, what do you suppose listeners called Juno Reactor's Transmissions? This is, of course, a defining moment in psychedelic trance, but at the time listeners were calling it "techno" or "trance" or even "ambient techno."

Of course, when you take a trip back to 1994 you find all sorts of amusing rubbish. Case in point:

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Trance iz being done to death, I'm tired of hearing Leary samplez, McKenna samplez, tribal chantz that sound way too much like Deep Forest and such shite. Mozt of it iz just plain boring...and almost all of it getz praize, even the bad stuff like Juno Reactor.

To prove my point, check this out:
http://groups.google.com/groups/sea...12&as_maxy=1995

There are only SIX mentions of "psychedelic trance" on Usenet prior to 1996. After that? Hundreds. And of those six? "Pain Emission," an industrial group, two ambient techno compilations, something about magic, a review of Mazzy Star in "Rational Alternative Digital Cyberzine," and one reference to Pink Floyd. "Psytrance" doesn't match a single post.

So there we go.

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Originally posted by PETRAN Also i don't think that one needs to know a lot of music theory in order to create an EDM tune (especially one which would contain the word "glitch" in it!). I would say that "technical/engineering" aspects about how synths and music software (like "Cubase" or "logic") work are more important. "Not knowing a lot about music" could be an excuse really!(the real one being "im too lazy to learn the stuff that i need in order to create music"). So, why not buy (download lol) some music software (i would say to start with "reason" which is rather user-friendly), learn a few basic stuff in the net about music theory and provide us with some fantastic "glitch trance" tunes?

believe me, i've tried to produce in the past.. and the result was very, very scary

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Originally posted by basilisk It was interchangeable throughout the nineties to a certain extent... namely that the vast increase of psychedelic trance listeners were typically brought in by the popularization of "Goa trance," which accounts for how strongly favoured the term was in 1995-1997. Afterwards the tide turns and many listeners began to leave it aside for reasons I mentioned (reclaiming artistic identity, dissociation from marketing hype, not wishing to be boxed in, etc.). I don't think anything like a critical consensus existed prior to 1994/1995... in 1993, for instance, what do you suppose listeners called Juno Reactor's Transmissions? This is, of course, a defining moment in psychedelic trance, but at the time listeners were calling it "techno" or "trance" or even "ambient techno." Of course, when you take a trip back to 1994 you find all sorts of amusing rubbish. Case in point: To prove my point, check this out: http://groups.google.com/groups/sea...12&as_maxy=1995 There are only SIX mentions of "psychedelic trance" on Usenet prior to 1996. After that? Hundreds. And of those six? "Pain Emission," an industrial group, two ambient techno compilations, something about magic, a review of Mazzy Star in "Rational Alternative Digital Cyberzine," and one reference to Pink Floyd. "Psytrance" doesn't match a single post. So there we go.

Well, maybe your older google search maybe didn't return anything for psy, but a similar older google search for 81-94 (and not 95) wouldn't reveal anything for "goa" as well! Well i made it and i got 5 results for goa-trance!

http://groups.google.com/groups/sea...12&as_maxy=1994

Truth is that a search for goa for 81-95 revealed around 57 results, certifying in a way that the term "goa" was used earlier in comparison to the term "psy", but this is for a year or so and is far from the large differences that were mentioned before (like goa-93, psy-98). A search for 81-96 for psy-trance revealed around 126 results. The compilation that i own from 95 is this:


http://www.discogs.com/release/59075


and certifies the fact that the term was used from 1995. I have to say though that the net was probably very small back in 93-94 so i don't know about its real-world validity. That is, these searches may not be valid representatives of what was really going-on back in the day. It is probably true though tha nor "psy" neither "goa" were used to describe 1993 releases like the amazing "Transmissions". People in 93 probably referred to such music simply as "techno" or "trance".


Anyway, despite the temporal difference of the two terms, i insist that there is not ACTUAL difference when both of them were used (be it 94 or 95) and that both terms referred to the same music/musicians/parties/symbols etc. I don't know if the same holds for releases after 2000. Gee, i've done this discussion countless times before i don't know why am i doing this again. Probably somekind of weird sado-massochistic behaviour or something...

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Originally posted by PETRAN i insist that there is not ACTUAL difference when both of them were used (be it 94 or 95) and that both terms referred to the same music/musicians/parties/symbols etc.

Because goa was the sound that dominated psychedelic trance at the time. Now in retrospect we can establish that goa, in the most basic definition, is psychedelic trance. But more specifically it is a type of psychedelic trance distinguished by a number of characterstics that are not necessarily present in everything classified as psychedelic trance or psytrance. In other words, when i say "goa" i'm saying psychedelic trance, of course, but i'm not saying X-Dream - Radio.

That's the idea.

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Originally posted by sljiva Goa has been around from 1993, psy from 1998

Neither... Twisted was the first psytrance album (just listen to it!)
and that was released in 1995... however nothing went close to psy again until approx 1998/1997

Might be wrong here but IIRC I heard Goa trance first started forming by 1989 and the unique style was formed by about 1991. I could just be pulling this from my ass though and 1993 is a good date too. Anyway comments are psytrance a lot more accurate.

Goa trance was called psychedelic trance but in general the psytrance abbreviation only came with "psytrance" as it is called now surely?

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WTF people are you talking about here? Seems like you just waited for someone to say something doubtful so that you can pop up your e-penis and start to show off with your knowledge.
So to clarify the situation: Darkarbiter said "Psytrance has only been around since 1998 approx" (obviously reffering to less melodic and non-indian influenced sound of psychedelic trance) on which PETRAN replied "psytrance has been arround from 1993 or something..." (which is true (although I prefer the term psychedelic trance), but not true in this context, since it would mean that the sound Darkarbiter was talking about (for example let's say the sound of TIP.World or Flying Rhino since 1999) has been around since 1993 (which is simply not true). So basilisk (and others who felt the strong urge to fix the damage I've done with my post), maybe you should've read what was posted before me.

Or, you know, maybe some of us know what we're talking about

Darkarbiter: Twisted as the first psytrance album--does this claim hold? What about Transmissions, or Eat Static's Abduction for that matter? Both were released in 1993. I think you might have a fight on your hands were you to argue that Twisted has little to do with Goa trance, and likewise, that it somehow preludes X-Dream's Radio (which undoubtedly marks the end of the classic era of Goa trance).

and not to mention that The Infinity Project released a good load of psytrance way before 98.

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