quote:

Originally posted by Chryz707 Agreed this waste of life should be killed, but if they were going to kill him, dont make a big deal over it, who gives a shit, he's a terrorist, just kill him out in the desert where no one cares and forget him, the end, but no everyone has to make a federal case. if we didnt make any records and just killed him there wouldnt be anything to have a scandal over. Fuck it feed him to some pigs on a Farm in Canada. Let him goto Allah via the pig.

Yes, because what separates us and them certainly isn't our belief in the rule of law and a fair justice system for all.

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quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo what native Hawaiians (there are only around 100,000 nationaly) don't comprehend is that it was either gonna be us or the French. you ever been to Haiti? yeah, don't. they also voted overwhelmingly to become a state, so... but thats another thread.

You fool. The fRENCH AND BRITISH signed a pact where they agreed that neither would pursue the islands. Read about it. So Americans took advantage of that, and overthrew the monarchy and installed their leader. Haiti and Hawaii are opposites. Hawaii was always rich, sugar cane exports primarily to USA have been area's long-term source of prosperity. However, local white owners and business interests figured that by deposing Hawaii's leader and removing independence would remove all trade restrictions.

So I guess you think the same thing of American aggression against Philippines ... it was gonna be you (Americans) or the Spanish, right? Dont you recall that brutal conflict, during which hundreds of thousands of Phillipine natives died, along with many US troops? Just like any other American act of aggression ... Hawaii liked independence, they lived well as a monarchy. American interests came around, stripped the islands of their independence to take over and pocket the wealth and the market.

One thing I agree with you is that this should be another topic ...

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

Honestly, let's just stop all this crazy non-sense.

Let's just find a way to live together without having to destroy shit. There has to be a way, I can feel it.

Not that I think this matters much in regards to Democratic capitulation, but it does wreak of illegal activities. It's too much wishful thinking to hope someone will truly be held accountable:

quote:

CIA destroyed tapes despite court orders By MATT APUZZO, Associated Press WriterWed Dec 12, 11:29 AM ET The Bush administration was under court order not to discard evidence of detainee torture and abuse months before the CIA destroyed videotapes that revealed some of its harshest interrogation tactics. Normally, that would force the government to defend itself against obstruction allegations. But the CIA may have an out: its clandestine network of overseas prisons. While judges focused on the detention center in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and tried to guarantee that any evidence of detainee abuse would be preserved, the CIA was performing its toughest questioning half a world away. And by the time President Bush publicly acknowledged the secret prison system, interrogation videotapes of two terrorism suspects had been destroyed. The CIA destroyed the tapes in November 2005. That June, U.S. District Judge Henry H. Kennedy Jr. had ordered the Bush administration to safeguard "all evidence and information regarding the torture, mistreatment, and abuse of detainees now at the United States Naval Base at Guantanamo Bay." U.S. District Judge Gladys Kessler issued a nearly identical order that July. At the time, that seemed to cover all detainees in U.S. custody. But Abu Zubaydah and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, the terrorism suspects whose interrogations were videotaped and then destroyed, weren't at Guantanamo Bay. They were prisoners that existed off the books — and apparently beyond the scope of the court's order. Attorneys say that might not matter. David H. Remes, a lawyer for Yemeni citizen Mahmoad Abdah and others, asked Kennedy this week to schedule a hearing on the issue. Though Remes acknowledged the tapes might not be covered by Kennedy's order, he said, "It is still unlawful for the government to destroy evidence, and it had every reason to believe that these interrogation records would be relevant to pending litigation concerning our client." In legal documents filed in January 2005, Assistant Attorney General Peter D. Keisler assured Kennedy that government officials were "well aware of their obligation not to destroy evidence that may be relevant in pending litigation." For just that reason, officials inside and outside of the CIA advised against destroying the interrogation tapes, according to a former senior intelligence official involved in the matter who spoke on condition of anonymity because it is under investigation. Exactly who signed off on the decision is unclear, but CIA director Michael Hayden told the agency in an e-mail this week that internal reviewers found the tapes were not relevant to any court case. Remes said that decision raises questions about whether other evidence was destroyed. Abu Zubaydah's interrogation helped lead investigators to alleged 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Remes said Abu Zubaydah may also have been questioned about other detainees. Such evidence might have been relevant in their court cases. "It's logical to infer that the documents were destroyed in order to obstruct any inquiry into the means by which statements were obtained," Remes said. He stopped short, however, of accusing the government of obstruction. That's just one of the legal issues that could come up in court. A judge could also raise questions about contempt of court or spoliation, a legal term for the destruction of evidence in "pending or reasonably foreseeable litigation." Kennedy has not scheduled a hearing on the matter and the government has not filed a response to Remes' request. ___ Associated Press Writer Lara Jakes Jordan contributed to this report. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071212...deotapes_courts

Speaking of capitulation (and on a different topic altogether), looks like Harry Reid is gonna put the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence FISA bill on the floor that Senator Rockefeller helped create with Dick Cheney that gives retroactive immunity to the telecom industry. In doing so, he's deliberately shafting the Judiciary Committee bill created by Senator Leahy that specifically does NOT give immunity, as well as shafting Senator Dodd who put a hold on the bill, as well as all the Democratic Presidential candidates who've come out and said they do NOT support retroactive immunity.

The enablers are not always in the other parties, often times they are within. Reid, Rockefeller, Pelosi, etc. - purely disgusting.

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Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Good work, Opus, as usual!

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

I came up with this logic:

Whats is the same about the loss of the original moon landing tapes and the cia torture tapes?

They were both covered up! LOL!

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

If the people who were burning to death and had to jump out of the WTC (just to end their misery), could have had a choice; Jump out of the building? Or have a little water up your nose?.............I think they'd chose the water.

So we're torturing the poor Terrorists? Boohoo! I'm ALL BROKEN UP about it.

How does anyone here propose that we get information out of them then? Ask nicely again and again and again and again...until we kill them with kindness??

It should also be pointed out that A.Q.'s interrogation techniques with our prisoners and hostages they take involves torture FAR beyond a little water up the nose...and usually ends with someone's head getting chopped off.

Stop living in some idealistic dream-land! We're at war. It's time to kick the enemy's ass and WIN! And I don't really care who on their side gets hurt in order for us to win! I don't want to see thousands more killed because some lunatic didn't get tucked in to his cell bunk every night with a kiss and a smile.

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The thing about money? It makes you do things that you don't want to do

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco If the people who were burning to death and had to jump out of the WTC (just to end their misery), could have had a choice; Jump out of the building? Or have a little water up your nose?.............I think they'd chose the water. So we're torturing the poor Terrorists? Boohoo! I'm ALL BROKEN UP about it. How does anyone here propose that we get information out of them then? Ask nicely again and again and again and again...until we kill them with kindness?? It should also be pointed out that A.Q.'s interrogation techniques with our prisoners and hostages they take involves torture FAR beyond a little water up the nose...and usually ends with someone's head getting chopped off. Stop living in some idealistic dream-land! We're at war. It's time to kick the enemy's ass and WIN! And I don't really care who on their side gets hurt in order for us to win! I don't want to see thousands more killed because some lunatic didn't get tucked in to his cell bunk every night with a kiss and a smile.

If we're supposed to feel better about being "not as bad" as the terrorists, that's about as low as you can set the bar. Just because we haven't sunk alllll the way down to their level, we haven't scored any victory. America does not torture, because it is against the moral principles of this country. End of argument.

Don't you get it? If we change our fundamental beliefs about human decency, then they have won. If we shred the Constitution, even just a little bit, what victory have we won? Torturing the enemy goes against who we are and why this country was created in the first place. And that's a far greater price to pay.

Add to the fact that under duress of torture the rate of false confessions is extraordinarily high and experts attest that we can't be certain if any of the information we get from torture is actually accurate or not. The army officer who himself underwent waterboarding said the same thing. It is torture, it is unreliable, and it is something that the United States should never, ever, sink to the level of.

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Originally posted by donnybrasco So we're torturing the poor Terrorists? Boohoo! I'm ALL BROKEN UP about it.

Well, the problem is they pick up the most random people based on heresy and "sus[icion" who they can't file any charges against, especially considering they don't have any evidence tying them to anything.

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco I don't want to see thousands more killed because some lunatic didn't get tucked in to his cell bunk every night with a kiss and a smile.

Then let's impeach and prosecute Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and an endless list of American Presidents, Vice Presidents, Secretary of Defence/CIA/Defence Department/Pentagon operatives/directors, etc etc.

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"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Don't you get it? If we change our fundamental beliefs about human decency, then they have won. If we shred the Constitution, even just a little bit, what victory have we won? Torturing the enemy goes against who we are and why this country was created in the first place. And that's a far greater price to pay.

You're kidding yourself. Torture has been going on in all wars that we've ever been involved in...on both sides!

Yes, we hide it more due to our supposed "moral code", which I do believe despite hiding it, it is, over-all, superior to our enemies. During WW2, for example, German POW's generally lived like kings here in the U.S....well documented fact. While in Germany, they executed many of our POW's.

There are times though when certain elements are NOT going to give up critical information that will save American lives, and you can't get it out of them be following a "moral code". Ethics over winning the war and living? I'll take living and winning! In fact, it would be UN-ethical to let Americans die because we didn't want to bring a little physical or psychological harm to our enemies!

Our enemies aren't impressed by our "moral code". They already think we're immoral for the way we live in general (infidels).

This is not a political debate. This isn't a college campus issue. This is a WAR. Do you want to live and win...and preserve our way of life? Or do you want to lose the war, and be forced to live as A.Q. would like to see us live, potentially even getting killed in the process...all for your "moral code"??

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The thing about money? It makes you do things that you don't want to do

Last edited by donnybrasco on Dec-15-2007 at 00:15

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Well, the problem is they pick up the most random people based on heresy and "sus[icion" who they can't file any charges against, especially considering they don't have any evidence tying them to anything.

I feel that the vast majority of the time, they'll get the right people. They're already using torture judicially...partly as a result of all of this fall-out in the past couple of years on the issue. I feel confident that they are saving the torture for those for whom there is NO DOUBT they are genuine, dangerous enemies of ours.

I sleep well at night knowing that their asses are suffering so that mine might live.

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The thing about money? It makes you do things that you don't want to do