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Originally posted by George Smiley I also fundamentally reject the requirement to worship and fear God in order to be a "good person" (which religion tells me I should)

So do I. Not all religions tell you this.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by LazFX

LMAO!

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Originally posted by venomX I've always thought the bible is a decent self help book, nothing more.

Me too

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Perhaps there is a suggestion of divinity there but he certainly did not overtly state he was divine. This verse could just as easily mean that only by following Jesus' teachings could one gain access to God. That same passage goes on to refer to God as the Father and Jesus as a son but he also refers to all people as God's Children (interestingly... Jesus' in the original Aramaic texts refers to God as Abba, which doesn't mean father... it's meaning is closer to Daddy... it's a very informal word). Jesus goes out of his way to avoid claiming divinity by not giving straight answers when asked... normally saying things like "if you say I am", or "as you state", never does he say "I am the son of God and divine" or anything close.

Wow, Craig, I guess you're not Catholic? What you're saying about Jesus is exactly what Muslims believe!

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Originally posted by fayraree Wow, Craig, I guess you're not Catholic? What you're saying about Jesus is exactly what Muslims believe!

Aren't Christian apostates to Muslims and deserving of death? I've watched a few suicide bombings and jihad tapes and the guy behind/infront of the camera is always talking about infidels, apostates, and crusaders. Don't you want us dead for refusing the koran?

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Originally posted by fayraree LMAO! Me too Wow, Craig, I guess you're not Catholic? What you're saying about Jesus is exactly what Muslims believe!

Actually I am Roman Catholic, very ardently Roman Catholic. What I'm saying is that Jesus' did not claim to be divine, I believe that he was; however, he never outright makes this claim. As far as the Muslim belief in Jesus as man goes I'm fine with that, as the Catholic belief is that Jesus was god appearing on earth in human form; therefore, during his life Jesus was a man. As for the rest of the Muslim beliefs re: Jesus (PBUH) I can't agree. I do believe he was killed and he is dead, not that he escaped death and ascended to heaven in human form. I do believe he will return but not to lead a battle and be burried aside Muhammed.

Since I threw out the PBUH... is the phrase "peace be upon him" only reserved for Moses, Jesus, and Muhammed or is it ever used in other contexts? If reserved for those three only; why, just out of respect of them as the three great prophets of Allah?

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by Krypton Aren't Christian apostates to Muslims and deserving of death? I've watched a few suicide bombings and jihad tapes and the guy behind/infront of the camera is always talking about infidels, apostates, and crusaders. Don't you want us dead for refusing the koran?

Islamism actually has a respect for "people of the book" (Jews and Christians) and I don't think "Infidels" should really be used to describe them. It refers to those that don't believe in God in the way they do, and Christians and Jews do not fall into that category (aetheists and Hindus would tho)

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Originally posted by George Smiley ...and Christians and Jews do not fall into that category (aetheists and Hindus would tho)

just cuz the so called children of Abraham, both Ishmael and Issac can't bury the hatchet about whose on first and whats on second....

i mean shit.....
talk about a family feud... oy vey ... enough already

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Originally posted by George Smiley Islamism actually has a respect for "people of the book" (Jews and Christians) and I don't think "Infidels" should really be used to describe them. It refers to those that don't believe in God in the way they do, and Christians and Jews do not fall into that category (aetheists and Hindus would tho)

This is a touchy subject and the source of much debate....
The Qur'an does state that Allah is the same God as the God of the Jews and Christians, in fact, the Qur'an goes so far as to state that the Torah, the Psalms (David's), and the Gospels are divinely inspired but not the unfiltered word of God (which the Qur'an claims to be).

The Qur'an even goes so far as to state that proof of the Qur'an's authenticity can be found by examining the Torah, Psalms, and the Gospels. This is an unfortunate thing for the Qur'an to claim because there are many instances where the Qur'an directly contradicts these other divinely inspired texts.

Maybe the greatest of these contradictions is in regard to the Son God promises Abraham. Forgive me if I give too much info here because I'm uncertain of your familiarity with the story... Abraham's wife was baren; however, God promised a son to Abraham... this son would go on to found God's chosen people. Well, Abraham's wife (Sarah) was barren but offered Abraham her servant to act as a surogate mother for his child... so good ol' Abe banged the slave and knocked her up... this son was named Ishmael. Turn's out this wasn't God's prefered method of giving Abe a son so God made Sarah fertile again... she got knocked up too (many years later) and had a son, Issac. Issac ended up having a son, Jacob... who was the father of the 12 tribes of Isreal. The Torah claims Jacob to be the son God promised Abraham therefore the Isrealis have claim to the promised land, the Qur'an claims Ishmael was the son God promised Abraham and since Muhammed is claimed to be a desendant of Ishmael Muslims believe they are the ones to whom God promised the holy land.

Another big contradiction between the Qur'an and the other divinely inspired scriptures is that the Qur'an states Jesus escaped death and ascended into heaven as a living human, whereas all of the gospels (even those that don't appear in the bible with the exception of one) are in agreement that Jesus died on the cross. In futher conflict with the Gospels, the Qur'an claims Jesus was in no way divine, which is a pretty far cry from the Gospels' claim that Jesus was God walking earth as a human and upon his death became one with God again.

In an effort to resolve these contraditions most muslims believe that the Torah and Gospels have been misinterpreted or outright corrupted and the material we have today is not consistant with the original texts... which they believe are consistant with the Qur'an. The net result of this is that some Muslims see Jews and Christians as being mislead or duped... unfortunate suckers who fell for a trick and worship a perversion of the true word of God... others just see it as a simple difference in interpretation. Those who believe that Christians and Jews qualify as Infidels are amongst those that believe that Jews and Christians were duped and if they cannot be made to see their error then they should be put to death. The vast majority of Muslims don't feel that way and consider Jews and Christians to be their brothers... or perhaps cousins would be a better analogy as they are distant decendants of brothers (Ishmael and Jacob).

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

Last edited by Moral Hazard on Dec-12-2007 at 18:12

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Originally posted by LazFX just cuz the so called children of Abraham, both Ishmael and JACOB can't bury the hatchet about whose on first and whats on second....

FIXED (Issac would be Abraham's grandson).

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard FIXED (Issac would be Abraham's grandson).

you sure about that sparky??

God tested Abraham by commanding him to sacrifice his son. Abraham obeyed and took Isaac to the mount Moriah. Without murmuring, Isaac let Abraham bind him and lay him upon the altar as a sacrifice. Abraham took the knife and raised his hand to kill his son. At the last minute, an angel of the Lord prevented him from doing so. Instead of Isaac, Abraham sacrificed a ram that was trapped in a thicket nearby.

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Originally posted by LazFX you sure about that sparky?? God tested Abraham by commanding him to sacrifice his son. Abraham obeyed and took Isaac to the mount Moriah. Without murmuring, Isaac let Abraham bind him and lay him upon the altar as a sacrifice. Abraham took the knife and raised his hand to kill his son. At the last minute, an angel of the Lord prevented him from doing so. Instead of Isaac, Abraham sacrificed a ram that was trapped in a thicket nearby.

Shit, you're right...
Gen 21: 1 Now the LORD was gracious to Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did for Sarah what he had promised. 2 Sarah became pregnant and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the very time God had promised him. 3 Abraham gave the name Isaac [a] to the son Sarah bore him. 4 When his son Isaac was eight days old, Abraham circumcised him, as God commanded him. 5 Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him.

My bad... I got it right in my earlier post though... must have been a brain fart.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Since I threw out the PBUH... is the phrase "peace be upon him" only reserved for Moses, Jesus, and Muhammed or is it ever used in other contexts? If reserved for those three only; why, just out of respect of them as the three great prophets of Allah?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_...r_than_Muhammad



"salallahu alayhi wasalaam" (Peace be upon him) for Muhammad

"aleyhi salaam" (On him be peace) for all other prophets

Not sure why, it seems it's been a practice dating back to the beginning of Islam.