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Originally posted by Sanguis Mortuum When putting a stereo enhancer on your master, you should probably also keep in mind that most club systems are mono, so make sure to check what it sounds like in mono before you send it to anyone...

Indeed. I would recommend people to check their mix in mono as often as they can while mixing, especially when eq'ing. That way its much easier to hear actual interferences, and also get volume levels correct.

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Originally posted by palm i dont think u should think about that mono thing realy as long as the sounds isnt outfacing each other in mono. its the clubs responsibility to have atleast a good enough setup to be able to reproduce stereo.

Do you honestly have the slightest clue what you're talking about?

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Originally posted by palm i dont think u should think about that mono thing realy as long as the sounds isnt outfacing each other in mono. its the clubs responsibility to have atleast a good enough setup to be able to reproduce stereo.

Bare in mind that no sound is in stereo by nature, if you think about it. All sounds in nature comes from a mono soundsource. In music its just how we artificially manipulate the sound thats makes for the stereo. Therefore, the most natural way to mix would actually be in mono, and it is vital to do it regularly. If interference issues occur in mono, they're likely to occur on a stereo soundsystem as well, depending on where you're standing in proportion to the speakers.

Getting back to the topic, can anyone PLEASE tell me what levels there kick sits at when solo'd, and track unmastered. People have told me the kick HAS to be at this level, and the kick/bass subgroup HAS to be at this level... but I get different answers every time. And I know there's general rules for each genre but I want to get some guidelines for general Trance music.

Someone also mentioned in this thread that the main synth should be dead on 0db. Anyone care to shed some real light on the matter??

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Originally posted by palm i dont think u should think about that mono thing realy as long as the sounds isnt outfacing each other in mono. its the clubs responsibility to have atleast a good enough setup to be able to reproduce stereo.

afaik, most big clubs are in mono, because it is often difficult/impossible to get the correct angles for a stereo image. also, large clubs often need many sets of speakers throughout the club for architectural reasons (eg. terraces, balconies, etc). in such cases it is obviously not possible to get stereo.

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Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox I've never had a problem with FLs tech support till this day. (I've actually never used it till this day)

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Originally posted by floyd741 i think echosystm is a pretty cool guy. eh pwns robby rox and doesn't afraid of anything.

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Originally posted by Blahzaay Getting back to the topic, can anyone PLEASE tell me what levels there kick sits at when solo'd, and track unmastered. People have told me the kick HAS to be at this level, and the kick/bass subgroup HAS to be at this level... but I get different answers every time. And I know there's general rules for each genre but I want to get some guidelines for general Trance music. Someone also mentioned in this thread that the main synth should be dead on 0db. Anyone care to shed some real light on the matter??

When will people actually get creative and decide for their own? ITS MUSIC!! Whatever SOUNDS good, IS good. It's YOUR music, YOU decide. YOU make the rules. Start LISTENING to the MUSIC you make, and don't take as an absolute any freakin rules others have made! Be your OWN guide! Originality is the key! With time you'll develope YOUR OWN style!

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Originally posted by lenieNt Force When will people actually get creative and decide for their own? ITS MUSIC!! Whatever SOUNDS good, IS good. It's YOUR music, YOU decide. YOU make the rules. Start LISTENING to the MUSIC you make, and don't take as an absolute any freakin rules others have made! Be your OWN guide! Originality is the key! With time you'll develope YOUR OWN style!

unfortunately, dance music is science as far as mixing is concerned. not creative. your track has to be perfectly mixed with the right levels of bass and kick in order to ensure the kick is prominant while the bass is still in your face. it just happens that eric pryds, deadmau5 etc all know there right balance of levels. this is why their tracks are often the best sounding tracks of the night.



speaking from a -3db total headroom usage before mastering:

trance:-
imo the muted kickdrum should peak at -8db
adding the bass should take it up to a max of -6db

then mix all other parts till it is peaking at -3db and you are happy with the sound.

group the kick and the bass channels into one 'group channel' and then adjust this group level till the mix of lows(kick and bass) matche the rest.

you may find that the peak goes higher than -3db so you will have to adjust levels equally so you dont go over -3db.

now the trick is to tweak eq's on each channel till your headroom usage goes down, while trying to get sound quality/power/perceived volume to improve.

then adjust again untill happy and peaking at -3db. send to mastering suit and hopefully the track should come out good.

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unfortunately, dance music is science as far as mixing is concerned. not creative.

Made me laugh..

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your track has to be perfectly mixed with the right levels of bass and kick in order to ensure the kick is prominant while the bass is still in your face.

And to ensure this, one cannot use his own ears anymore.

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Originally posted by richg101 unfortunately, dance music is science as far as mixing is concerned. not creative. your track has to be perfectly mixed with the right levels of bass and kick in order to ensure the kick is prominant while the bass is still in your face. it just happens that eric pryds, deadmau5 etc all know there right balance of levels. this is why their tracks are often the best sounding tracks of the night. speaking from a -3db total headroom usage before mastering: trance:- imo the muted kickdrum should peak at -8db adding the bass should take it up to a max of -6db then mix all other parts till it is peaking at -3db and you are happy with the sound. group the kick and the bass channels into one 'group channel' and then adjust this group level till the mix of lows(kick and bass) matche the rest. you may find that the peak goes higher than -3db so you will have to adjust levels equally so you dont go over -3db. now the trick is to tweak eq's on each channel till your headroom usage goes down, while trying to get sound quality/power/perceived volume to improve. then adjust again untill happy and peaking at -3db. send to mastering suit and hopefully the track should come out good.

Thank you richg101... I have done production courses, sat through many tutorials and posted on MANY forums for people to tell me that certain levels should be achieved for certain genres (especially kick and bass tracks) but no one has ever given me guidelines for trance until your post. I find that I always get in a vicious cycle and have to either raise or lower the kick and bass levels when I'm well in to the mix and sometimes can get real messy.

Anyway cheers for the guide, it's much appreciated!!!

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In my opinion you can't apply such simple guidelines to something so complex. Because every kick and bass synth have different frequency content producing a different percieved loudness. -8dB is a good starting point for the kick. Other than that, just use your damn ears.

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Originally posted by richg101 etc.

all this "use your ears" stuff is good and everything, but i can guarantee you almost every good song you've ever made adheres roughly to the levels rich quoted. this is just how things work usually. equing etc. though is a different kettle of fish.

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Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox I've never had a problem with FLs tech support till this day. (I've actually never used it till this day)

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Originally posted by floyd741 i think echosystm is a pretty cool guy. eh pwns robby rox and doesn't afraid of anything.

I think a general guideline, as a starting point, is useful.

But you can tell, by listening to a range of quality trance tracks, and analysing them, that not every kick/ bass combination is hitting at -6. There is a certain degree of variation and this is where the art meets the engineering. As Eldritch pointed out, it depends greatly on the particular sounds being used. Sometimes -8 will fit perfectly for that track, sometimes -4 could be perfect.

It is incorrect to say that all producers who make great sounding tracks use the same methods, or even end up with the same results, in terms of balances. If we're talking a very general ballpark, then maybe, but not if we're talking exactly at -6.

Some producers/ engineers don't even look at level meters and come up with fantastic results.

If you're going to go with these guidelines, that's fine. But make sure your mixing decisions are serving the art, not the level meters!