quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 I'm sorry, did I hear you right? Did you just note that Stalin's regime was good? Perhaps you can explain the purging and execution of millions of his own people is somehow demonstrable of a "good" regime?

It is easy to understand. The Russian society back then was very primitive and there were many non-believers in socialism and many believed in God and the Tsar. If he did not act the way he had too then socialism would have never happened in Russia.

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"is better to leave this earth as an honorable man

quote:

Originally posted by notepad bullshit.. this kind of thing you can never debate .. cos u never know whats the inside story.. maybe she was forced out of pakistan like nawaz sharrif..

No she really was corrupt,in fact; Musharaf is living in one of the palaces she had built during her reign.

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"is better to leave this earth as an honorable man

either we are dealing with a troll or an idiot. pick.

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Download and review ! Omega_M - In the Mix (Beta Version)

Originally posted by twilightki : It feels like something you'd listen to at 4 in the morning, or listen to in your car while you're going in a tunnel.

quote:

Originally posted by paranormal-real It is easy to understand. The Russian society back then was very primitive and there were many non-believers in socialism and many believed in God and the Tsar. If he did not act the way he had too then socialism would have never happened in Russia.

So he had to kill millions of his own people in order to pursue the wonderful world of socialism?

What a terrific way to get all those silly non-believers to, uhh, believe in something - by killing them, killing their families, their friends, their friends' families, their enemies, and everyone else.

Can you truly compel anyone here to think this isn't a tragically warped sense of view?

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Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 So he had to kill millions of his own people in order to pursue the wonderful world of socialism? What a terrific way to get all those silly non-believers to, uhh, believe in something - by killing them, killing their families, their friends, their friends' families, their enemies, and everyone else. Can you truly compel anyone here to think this isn't a tragically warped sense of view?

If you really believe he killed millions of his own people then look at the history of demographics for Russia. There is no evidence to suggest he killed as many people as the West likes to say.

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"is better to leave this earth as an honorable man

Wow, a lot can happen while you're asleep. I just woke up and this was news was the first thing I saw. Haven't really formed an opinion on it yet, but reading through this thread, it seems there are some rather radicalized opinions in support and opposition to what she stood for.

edit: comparing Bhutto to Gandhi and Stalin on the first page... well done guys.

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quote:

Originally posted by paranormal-real If you really believe he killed millions of his own people then look at the history of demographics for Russia. There is no evidence to suggest he killed as many people as the West likes to say.

Hmm, interesting. I didn't realize this was yet another West conspiracy against Russia.

Perhaps you could entertain us with evidence that supports your assertion? I'll start with one of mine - a Russian writer named Vadim Erlikman who believed there were 1.5 million killed in executions. He also has 5 million from gulags, and 1.7 million from deportations in his book "Poteri narodonaseleniia v XX veke: spravochnik." (Moscow, 2004). There's other non-Westerners listed here as well:

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Stalin

Here's another non-westerner:

quote:

"Between 1929 and 1953 the state created by Lenin and set in motion by Stalin deprived 21.5 million Soviet citizens of their lives." -Dmitri Volkogonov. Autopsy for an Empire: The Seven Leaders Who Built the Soviet Regime. p. 139

and yet another:

quote:

"My own many years and experience in the rehabilitation of victims of political terror allow me to assert that the number of people in the USSR who were killed for political motives or who died in prisons and camps during the entire period of Soviet power totaled 20 to 25 million. And unquestionably one must add those who died of famine — more than 5.5 million during the civil war and more than 5 million during the 1930s." -Alexander N. Yakovlev. A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia., Yale University Press, 2002, p. 234

and that lovely famine thingy imposed by Stalin was just terrific too:

http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/e...atcroft2004.pdf

and you're more than welcome to attempt to undermine historians such as this guy who's done quite a bit of homework on your sick hero:

http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/WCR-German_Soviet.pdf

and

http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/WCR-Scale_Repression.pdf

and this guy:

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...f/v43i3a06p.pdf

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Bhutto was not the democratic beacon of light that some on here are making her out to be. She went into exile to escape corruption charges. These charges are very credible and are not fabrications of the Pakistani government as they relate to documents handed over by the Swiss, French and Polish authorities. The Taliban did rise to power in Afghanistan with her support. Swiss bank accounts that were frozen during the corruption charges were due to be reopened because if the power-sharing deal struck between her and Musharaf.

I think she would have been very good for Pakistan if she had won power but don't kid yourself that she was some kind of liberal Ghandi type figure because she wasn't. It's quite likely she saw an opportunity to gain power and went for it, riding in under the guise of democratic reform, which I do actually think she would have attempted to implement

PS - the discussion about the merits of the Stalin regime can be discussed on a thread all to itself!!

quote:

Originally posted by RebeL9 nah I wouldn't want to do that. Your father and you would be left unemployed.

Awww, how clever of you!!! Tell me when you graduate to a 4th grade humor, perhaps it would be more enjoyable for me to insult you then. Until that time, I'll excuse myself from reacting to your haphazard childish drivel, ya emo half-wit chav.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Hurray!! emc^2 is back! Just what I wanted for Christmas! Anyway, back on topic, I notice the world's leaders and media have already conducted their conclusive investigations and have found that the Islamists did this, even tho it only happened a matter of hours ago! I'd prefer to wait for a while until more facts become available rather than use it to pursue a pre-set agenda. And that is aimed at everyone who wants to use this to justify their position towards dealing with Islamists, whether that is people on here with their opinions, or world leaders with their actions. Bhutto was hated by the Islamists, that we know. She was outspoken against them and was a powerful woman. This made her a major target for Islamist ire. But at the same time, I cannot rule out political enemies rather than religious/ideological enemies. Look at who stands to benefit from this the most - Musharaf. His main political opponent has been eliminated and he will most likely win major support for his war against the Islamists (and possibly other rebels such as those in Balochistan) both from abroad and at home. For the Islamists, I just don't see any real gains in doing this, other than feeding their crazy beliefs. I think this is likely to be one of those unsolved mysteries that spark a lot of conspiracy theories because I know for a fact the "official" version won't necessarily be one a lot of people believe seeing as the invesigation will have been carried out by one of the main suspects...

Ok, where's George Smiley and what have you done to him!!! Four paragraphs and Jews are still not blalmed for her assasination! You should think it through and correct yourself. I'm sure if you look hard enough, there'll be some kind of a Zionist link... a thread of anti-Israeli rhetoric you could swing from like a Gentile superhero, a Spiderman of sorts... only not as sexy.