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R!CH
check signal



Registered: Sep 2004
Location: potrero hill

quote:
Originally posted by donnybrasco
Really? Then show me the way Grasshopper, show me the way!


wow where do i start??? why don't you first explain to me your fuzzy logic for how you arrived at the conclusion that companies like halliburton are losing money as a result of inflation when from the end of 2002 (the mobilization leading up to the iraq invasion) to 2006 (prior to the string of congressional investigations into the company) their stock value blew up 600% while the dollar inflated by less than 0.3 against the euro? then we can move on to your lack of political and historical context in trying to explain how defense works in the united states.


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Old Post Jan-15-2008 20:41  United States
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donnybrasco
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2004
Location: L.A.

quote:
Originally posted by R!CH
wow where do i start??? why don't you first explain to me your fuzzy logic for how you arrived at the conclusion that companies like halliburton are losing money as a result of inflation when from the end of 2002 (the mobilization leading up to the iraq invasion) to 2006 (prior to the string of congressional investigations into the company) their stock value blew up 600% while the dollar inflated by less than 0.3 against the euro? then we can move on to your lack of political and historical context in trying to explain how defense works in the united states.


^^^I already said that I'm not happy about Halliburton. I never said that they weren't making money. But liberals always like to simplify the war in Iraq as being all about Halliburton, when it's just NOT! (and what are you talking about "0.3" percent? The Euro as of today is 1.48419 to the dollar)

Do you really think that should a Democrat get in office, the war in Iraq is going to end? It's still about that oil. And like I said before, that crosses ALL party lines when it comes to foreign policy as it relates to oil. Democrats like to use the war as a political bargaining chip with voters, but they're not dumb; They know which side of the bread their toast is buttered. In the end, they're not going to pull us out of Iraq any sooner than any Republican would...you watch and see! And Democrats have been some of the BIGGEST war mongers of the past century! (LBJ, Kennedy, etc...while people like Nixon got us OUT of Vietnam, something most liberals CONVENIENTLY over-look). To act like they're the "party of peace" is to blatantly close your eyes to history and the facts!

As for my "knowledge" of military history and defense in the U.S. from WW2 on-ward, I'm quite sure I'm much better versed in it than you think I am. What do you know about NORAD and the defense system we had in place to counter nuclear strikes? Do you think in the case of nuclear war, there is time to spool up production for defense? No, of course there isn't. It's all over in a matter of minutes! Thus we needed to be prepared for war 24/7, unlike our isolationist doctrine of the past dictated.

Nuclear wars aside, the most recent war in Iraq is a prime example of the new military doctrine for hitting hard and fast, severing the command and control structure where it lives, and ending the war before it ever really has a chance to begin!

I ca rumba, dude! This shit is basic stuff to anyone who's studied military history even just a little bit. It's no great secret. Read up on it for yourself.


___________________
The thing about money? It makes you do things that you don't want to do

Last edited by donnybrasco on Jan-15-2008 at 21:14

Old Post Jan-15-2008 21:04  United States
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Junior Chavez
(System Recordings / OC)



Registered: Jul 2005
Location: Orange, CA, USA

quote:
Originally posted by donnybrasco
^^^Like I said; Can't debate, just surfs the web for inflammatory rhetoric videos and pictures to post.

E-O-M!



i read part of your argument, it's the same thing... you're defending U.S. interests... you're defending death for money... you say oil is the only answer to an energy crisis...

how can i argue with a closed mind that only sees dollar signs... i can't change the way you think... sadly... all you care about is power/money/oppressive control.

it's ok... let's keep playing WORLD POLICE... we're just going to keep getting attacked... sad but true...


perhaps some day you will lose family in a lost "war"... perhaps someday you will know how it feels to feel death... it's not worth any amount of money...

perhaps some day...


___________________
www.soundcloud.com/juniorchavez || http://www.beatport.com/artist/junior-chavez/264819

"There are no barriers, only choices."

Old Post Jan-15-2008 21:14  Mexico
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donnybrasco
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2004
Location: L.A.

quote:
Originally posted by Junior Chavez
i read part of your argument


Would you prefer I use videos and pictures to debate? Will that make it easier for you?

quote:
Originally posted by Junior Chavez ...it's the same thing... you're defending U.S. interests... you're defending death for money... you say oil is the only answer to an energy crisis...

how can i argue with a closed mind that only sees dollar signs... i can't change the way you think... sadly... all you care about is power/money/oppressive control...


Mmm hmm...yup. You got me pegged alright! I'm a greedy, war-mongering money lover! And what are you, oh-hypocritical consumer of oil? You can't even admit your role as the driving force behind this grand atrocity called "supply and demand". And why? Because you and I know there's nothing you can do about stopping your need for it! Do you think we're the only country or people in the world who fights over oil? Are you kidding me? It's going on constantly around the globe. Just be glad that people like Al Queda aren't controlling the world oil supply. I think they'd have nuked the entire western hemisphere by now if they did.

You don't know your history of supply, demand and mankind/human nature. Control of goods is nothing new. But the money to pay for these wars and the impetus to fight them is driven by the consumers, not the other way around.

The way world population is increasing, and given how plentiful and relatively cheap oil still is when compared to alternative sources of energy, the need for oil isn't going to diminish due to simple supply and demand.

So your pie-in-the-sky idealism of a socialist "green" society is nothing more than a throw-back to the mis-guided and ill-informed hippie movement of the 1960's. It died for a reason.


___________________
The thing about money? It makes you do things that you don't want to do

Old Post Jan-15-2008 21:31  United States
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Junior Chavez
(System Recordings / OC)



Registered: Jul 2005
Location: Orange, CA, USA

it's excessive... but you wouldn't understand temperance...

We should spend money on solutions rather than $750,000,000,000 on defense. There is no real threat out there... we are simply there to make an EXCESSIVE amount of money... we already have enough... however, you nor anyone can give a real answer...


___________________
www.soundcloud.com/juniorchavez || http://www.beatport.com/artist/junior-chavez/264819

"There are no barriers, only choices."

Last edited by Junior Chavez on Jan-15-2008 at 21:51

Old Post Jan-15-2008 21:34  Mexico
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R!CH
check signal



Registered: Sep 2004
Location: potrero hill

quote:
Originally posted by donnybrasco
^^^I already said that I'm not happy about Halliburton. I never said that they weren't making money. But liberals always like to simplify the war in Iraq as being all about Halliburton, when it's just NOT! (and what are you talking about "0.3" percent? The Euro as of today is 1.48419 to the dollar)

Do you really think that should a Democrat get in office, the war in Iraq is going to end? It's still about that oil. And like I said before, that crosses ALL party lines when it comes to foreign policy as it relates to oil. Democrats like to use the war as a political bargaining chip with voters, but they're not dumb; They know which side of the bread their toast is buttered. In the end, they're not going to pull us out of Iraq any sooner than any Republican would...you watch and see! And Democrats have been some of the BIGGEST war mongers of the past century! (LBJ, Kennedy, etc...while people like Nixon got us OUT of Vietnam, something most liberals CONVENIENTLY over-look). To act like they're the "party of peace" is to blatantly close your eyes to history and the facts!

As for my "knowledge" of military history and defense in the U.S. from WW2 on-ward, I'm quite sure I'm much better versed in it than you think I am. What do you know about NORAD and the defense system we had in place to counter nuclear strikes? Do you think in the case of nuclear war, there is time to spool up production for defense? No, of course there isn't. It's all over in a matter of minutes! Thus we needed to be prepared for war 24/7, unlike our isolationist doctrine of the past dictated.

Nuclear wars aside, the most recent war in Iraq is a prime example of the new military doctrine for hitting hard and fast, severing the command and control structure where it lives, and ending the war before it ever really has a chance to begin!

I ca rumba, dude! This shit is basic stuff to anyone who's studied military history even just a little bit. It's no great secret. Read up on it for yourself.


jesus listen to yourself, why don't you stay focused on what's being discussed here instead of running off on my-team-versus-your-team tangents. typical of someone like you to break every viewpoint down to liberal-this democrat-that. i haven't even given you an indication of my political stance and here you are talking at me about democrats and liberals. ok?

what am i talking about 0.3? i'm talking about the period between 2002-2006 as indicated in the same sentence you read that number from. reading comprehension.

do i think a democrat will end our involvement in iraq's civil war? i don't know, maybe? it really depends on who becomes the president not what party. politics is too often viewed in this country as a team sport; over-simplified into black and white terms so that everything becomes easily digestable for people who need it fed to them in small chunks. it becomes easy to identify these people when you're talking about an issue and all you hear is terms like liberal and democrat being spat back at you.

in regards to your 'military knowledge' i'm almost certain i didn't underestimate you. you think name-dropping an acronym like norad proves anything? the flashpoint for policy change in this nation began well before norad and well before post-ww2. it was even articulated by eisenhower twice in my first post. so here's another hint:

" We have 50 per cent of the world's wealth, but only 6.3 per cent of its population. In this situation, our real job in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which permit us to maintain this position of disparity. To do so, we have to dispense with all sentimentality ... we should cease to talk about vague and unreal objectives such as human rights, the raising of living standards, and democratisation ... [we] must deal in straight power concepts ... [and not be] hampered by idealistic slogans about altruism and world-benefaction. "

- George Kennan, U.S. State Department Policy Planning, Study #23, 1948

nuclear wars aside? wait, what??? you are all over the place man. i think you need to re-examine your "knowledge" of military history with a heavy heavy dose of geopolitics because right now it sounds like you don't even have enough pieces of the puzzle to make out the picture.


___________________

Old Post Jan-15-2008 21:51  United States
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donnybrasco
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2004
Location: L.A.

quote:
Originally posted by Junior Chavez
it's excessive... but you wouldn't never understand temperance...


It's not excessive.

Let me paint you a picture of the world as not only how I believe you'd like to see it, but how it will actually then be, should it turn out the way you'd like to see it, as well;

A.) We pull out of Iraq, and we never again defend our world oil interests. We become isolationist's in a global economy (don't know how we'd manage to do that frankly, but I guess we're going to try).

B.) Other world powers move in to take control of said world oil supplies. Some of these powers (like North Korea or Iran) are strident anti-American.

C.) Over time, our economy grows very weak as supply and demand drives oil prices even higher within the U.S. Money to pay for infrastructure diminishes. Our standard of living takes a HUGE nose-dive. Money for National Defense diminishes along with it, thus leaving our economic interests throughout the world vulnerable to attack, as well as our own country...all thus further weakening us.

D.) The Pandora's box for world wars and instability now open and in the hands of our enemies, when some other world power is strong enough, they either drive us out of business altogether by strangling our oil tap even more, or they attack us out-right...OR; We die on the vine economically, and sink in to the sunset, financially ruined, a piss-poor second-rate country, our prosperity and our future, bleak.

Either way, we're going to war as a result of this policy you advocate, or you're advocating that you want to see us living at a MUCH lower standard than we are now...possibly even a permanent state of total depression.

Mmmmmm, sounds fun! Sign me up!


___________________
The thing about money? It makes you do things that you don't want to do

Last edited by donnybrasco on Jan-16-2008 at 04:51

Old Post Jan-15-2008 21:58  United States
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Junior Chavez
(System Recordings / OC)



Registered: Jul 2005
Location: Orange, CA, USA

so extreme lol. we cannot cut if off completely... and i never said pull out completely of the region... i said it's EXCESSIVE...


again...

quote:
Originally posted by Junior Chavez
you wouldn't understand temperance...


___________________
www.soundcloud.com/juniorchavez || http://www.beatport.com/artist/junior-chavez/264819

"There are no barriers, only choices."

Old Post Jan-15-2008 22:10  Mexico
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donnybrasco
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2004
Location: L.A.

quote:
Originally posted by R!CH
jesus listen to yourself, why don't you stay focused on what's being discussed here instead of running off on my-team-versus-your-team tangents. typical of someone like you to break every viewpoint down to liberal-this democrat-that. i haven't even given you an indication of my political stance and here you are talking at me about democrats and liberals. ok?

what am i talking about 0.3? i'm talking about the period between 2002-2006 as indicated in the same sentence you read that number from. reading comprehension.

do i think a democrat will end our involvement in iraq's civil war? i don't know, maybe? it really depends on who becomes the president not what party. politics is too often viewed in this country as a team sport; over-simplified into black and white terms so that everything becomes easily digestable for people who need it fed to them in small chunks. it becomes easy to identify these people when you're talking about an issue and all you hear is terms like liberal and democrat being spat back at you.

in regards to your 'military knowledge' i'm almost certain i didn't underestimate you. you think name-dropping an acronym like norad proves anything? the flashpoint for policy change in this nation began well before norad and well before post-ww2. it was even articulated by eisenhower twice in my first post. so here's another hint:

" We have 50 per cent of the world's wealth, but only 6.3 per cent of its population. In this situation, our real job in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which permit us to maintain this position of disparity. To do so, we have to dispense with all sentimentality ... we should cease to talk about vague and unreal objectives such as human rights, the raising of living standards, and democratisation ... [we] must deal in straight power concepts ... [and not be] hampered by idealistic slogans about altruism and world-benefaction. "

- George Kennan, U.S. State Department Policy Planning, Study #23, 1948

nuclear wars aside? wait, what??? you are all over the place man. i think you need to re-examine your "knowledge" of military history with a heavy heavy dose of geopolitics because right now it sounds like you don't even have enough pieces of the puzzle to make out the picture.


Well now you're just making my own argument for me! Thanks! Yes, what do you think countries have a military for? Ultimately, it's to defend their economic interests. Is this a crime? Hardly. It's been going on since the inception of human history...and it's common sense.

Today, we do NOT represent anything like having 50% of the world wealth. Your quote is dated AND mis-leading.

And as for 0.3 percent increase in the value of the Euro between 2002 and 2006, I challenge you to show me the chart that says that! It was going up steadily since 2003, and was quite high by 2006...much higher than "0.3"!

And I'm not on either of the major "teams" FYI. I happen to be a registered Libertarian. The hypocrisy of both the major parties is just as vexing to me as it is to you (as well as some issues I have with my own party).

As for military spending and defense doctrine, I'm addressing again what this whole thread is about; Creating wars simply to satisfy national defense corporate proftis...or did your "reading comphrension skills" desert you?


___________________
The thing about money? It makes you do things that you don't want to do

Old Post Jan-15-2008 22:14  United States
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donnybrasco
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2004
Location: L.A.

quote:
Originally posted by Junior Chavez
so extreme lol. we cannot cut if off completely... and i never said pull out completely of the region... i said it's EXCESSIVE...


again...


So you'd have us weaken ourselves in the belief that what; Our enemies just want a hug and they won't harm us if we all play nice together?

Read up on history my friend. The world does not, and never will, work that way. Become weak, and you get attacked. It's as simple as that. Leave the flower-child stuff in the past, where it belongs...


___________________
The thing about money? It makes you do things that you don't want to do

Old Post Jan-15-2008 22:16  United States
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R!CH
check signal



Registered: Sep 2004
Location: potrero hill

quote:
Originally posted by donnybrasco
It's not excessive.

Let me paint you a picture of the world as not only how I believe you'd like to see it, but how it will actually then be, should it turn out the way you'd like to see it, as well;

A.) We pull out of Iraq, and we never again defend our world oil interests. We become isolationist's in a global economy (don't know how we'd manage to do that frankly, but I guess we're going to try).

B.) Other world powers move in to take control of said world oil supplies. Some of these powers (like North Korea or Iran) are strident anti-American.

C.) Over time, our economy grows very weak as supply and demand drives oil prices even higher within the U.S. Money to pay for infrastructure and diminishes. Our standard of living takes a HUGE nose-dive. Money for National Defense diminishes along with it, thus leaving our economic interests throughout the world vulnerable to attack, as well as our own country...all thus further weakening us.

D.) The Pandora's box for world wars and instability now open and in the hands of our enemies, when some other world power is strong enough, they either drive us out of business altogether by strangling our oil tap even more, or they attack us out-right...OR; We die on the vine economically, and sink in to the sunset, financially ruined, a piss-poor second-rate country, our prosperity and our future, bleak.

Either way, we're going to war as a result of this policy you advocate, or you're advocating that you want to see us living at a MUCH lower standard than we are now...possibly even a permanent state total depression.

Mmmmmm, sounds fun! Sign me up!


how about option

e) we devise an energy policy for the first time in 7 years. one that weens this nation off foreign oil dependency and thus the need to control foreign oil supplies or be held hostage by them. we germinate a culture of energy efficiency and conservation with as much effort as we have for fear and vigilence. we reopen the debate for nuclear power on the floor of congress and instead of continuing to build gas and coal-fired power plants we switch our national energy grid to mostly nuclear power, which will eventually phase out to renewable sources of energy after we pass a bill that funds research into making solar and wind power more economically viable. the united states is the richest nation in wind and solar resources fyi. we incentivize the redevelopment of the electric car, which was a success before it was terminated by oil interests, and develop infrastructure to support it so that we can recharge our cars at home rather than filling up with gasoline. then as the 3rd largest oil-producing nation in the world, we can be self-sufficient in our petroleum needs without having to pander to oppressive regimes like the saudi royal family. we wouldn't have to construct and maintain massive military outposts in the region to ensure a stable follow of oil for our wasteful habits. why is it that fuel economy standards in CHINA of all places are higher than those in the united states? are you telling me that america, the richest, most educated, most technologically endowed nation in the world is incapable of taking a step in the right direction like the rest of the developed world has? maybe we need to think about passing real laws instead of those that make h2 hummers, which are exempt from fuel standards in america, a write-off for any person with a business license.


___________________

Old Post Jan-15-2008 22:17  United States
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Junior Chavez
(System Recordings / OC)



Registered: Jul 2005
Location: Orange, CA, USA

agreed... as i said before instead of spending $750,000,000,000 on defense... just a Fraction of that money would provide solutions so that we are not dependent...


___________________
www.soundcloud.com/juniorchavez || http://www.beatport.com/artist/junior-chavez/264819

"There are no barriers, only choices."

Old Post Jan-15-2008 22:24  Mexico
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