quote:

Originally posted by Krypton The beauty of the internet is that it isn't owned by anyone. It's a public domain and as long as it is, it'll remain the most open forum of traditional and liberal ideas.

its also home to the "internet detectives" who feel that traditional works (textbooks, journals, articles, magazines, think tanks etc) have been supplanted by this "free forum" when a lot of "information" that appears on the net is absolute rubbish.

also, "liberal ideas" were a cornerstone of the creation of the internet, so i dont see it as a necessary tool for the perpetuation of a body of thought that is over 400 years old.

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Actually I can't stop. You are disgracing MLK's teachings and what everyone should learn from him.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN actually, raistlin said it. weis and hickman were the authors, but good try. completely wrong.

Raistlin is a fictional character in a game world, conceptualized by, in this case Weis and Hickman. You can't cite a fictional creation without giving credit to those who created it. Yet again you see differences, and not similarities, and you attack me by calling me wrong.

What did MLK teach us about differences, and similarities?

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN it means you should walk through life with your eyes open, without being fooled by hopes and dreams that arent real (i know this because raistlin clarifies the point when tanis asks him about it )

Uhm, Duh.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN extend this to the real world, it means dont be fooled by religion, "spiritual" charlatans, or second-rate, unsubstantiated youtube videos it means approach all situations as a realist and a sceptic. keep an open mind as long as the evidence is good.

But yet be fooled by a fictional tale of mages and wizardry, and apparently Faux News too.

You all are forgetting how much easier the internet has made getting pornography and plagiarizing.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN dont argue with the yanks nutter, they know best!

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Originally posted by toolman667 Raistlin is a fictional character in a game world, conceptualized by, in this case Weis and Hickman. You can't cite a fictional creation without giving credit to those who created it.

i asked "who said it?" not "which authors wrote that?". and i certainly can cite a fictional quote without talking about weis or hickman.

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Originally posted by toolman667 But yet be fooled by a fictional tale of mages and wizardry, and apparently Faux News too.

who is being fooled? its called being entertained. and what does faux news have to do with this? we dont even get it over here mate.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN its also home to the "internet detectives" who feel that traditional works (textbooks, journals, articles, magazines, think tanks etc) have been supplanted by this "free forum" when a lot of "information" that appears on the net is absolute rubbish.

These people were philosophers back in the day.

Look at open source and linux, and how it has continued to prevail, and bring about solid software, with the work of honest, and voluntary work, world wide. This is a Free Forum. You just need to educate YOURSELF, don't let magazines and publications tell you whats going on, those are all products of money, and corporations with certain interests feeding you things, and have been for years, thus why it is the norm, and people accept it.

I get no money for the words I speak to you now.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN also, "liberal ideas" were a cornerstone of the creation of the internet, so i dont see it as a necessary tool for the perpetuation of a body of thought that is over 400 years old.

This is where my point of seeking the truth comes out. Have you learned about Computer technology? Have you worked for a dot com, let alone many of them? I have. I understand how to build one, I understand exactly what goes on, from the technical aspect to the business aspect of running a successful website. From routing protocols to common business models supporting the growth of a website. Throughout my studies into technology and computers, I have only learned how to think logically, and it really has opened my eyes.

People don't talk about logic anymore, people don't come together and discuss ideas openly, they just (as MLK told us NOT TO DO) point out differences, and call them looneys.

This is what I think microprocessors were supposed to bring to mankind. Logic, the ability to to identify truth.

Lets hope governments dont start to censor the internet, or "corporations" dont start to sensor our connections.... oh wait, comcast? ATT? Yahoo? China? Why do you think they are trying to do that? I can't think of any other logical reason, other than control.

Do you have control, or do you just want to keep working "for the man" raising enough money to pay your debts, so you can buy a house, or hopefully some land (if there is some left, that isnt already owned by any huge corporations or governments).

We are slaves. The internet has freed thought.

Last edited by toolman667 on Jan-22-2008 at 02:54

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i asked "who said it?" not "which authors wrote that?". and i certainly can cite a fictional quote without talking about weis or hickman.

Well if you live on planet earth, and you are a human being, then who said it would be Margaret Weis, simply because she exists, and her *fictional* creation does not. Surprisingly the author is also the same person. Uhm, the quote is not fictional either, its very much a part of reality. Perhaps you are confused as to what reality is.

Once again Differences, not similarities. .... remember MLK? This is a tribute to him, and you obviously didn't read the OP.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN who is being fooled? its called being entertained. and what does faux news have to do with this? we dont even get it over here mate.

This should be your sig.

I completely agree with it. Who is being fooled? Who is being entertained? Who told you Faux news didn't have an influence because you live in another country?

These are global companies. Have people ever been globalized, and united in the same way corporate interests are? Maybe you should read into the internet... now they have.

Last edited by toolman667 on Jan-22-2008 at 03:15

Welcome back, Latin. I look forward to more productive conversations with you.

Nice thread topic, by the way.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

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Originally posted by toolman667 These people were philosophers back in the day.

have you actually read any philosophers? i can tell you categorically that "these people" have absolutely NOTHING in common with some of the greatest minds we owe our society to.

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Originally posted by toolman667 Look at open source and linux, and how it has continued to prevail, and bring about solid software, with the work of honest, and voluntary work, world wide.

so what? these are NOT the people i am pointing my fingers at. i am talking about those that feel traditional knowledge is somehow "poisoned" and that only the internet has free ideas, which is absolute idiocy.

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Originally posted by toolman667 This is a Free Forum. You just need to educate YOURSELF, don't let magazines and publications tell you whats going on, those are all products of money, and corporations with certain interests feeding you things, and have been for years, thus why it is the norm, and people accept it.

oh, more of this adolescent immaturity.

firstly, scientific journals must undergo the rigours of peer review. they don't answer to nor speak for "the corporations", unless of course you could direct me to a specific corporation that owns the world's scientific community?

if you had bothered to actually engage with any serious publications you would know that ye olde textbooks are rife with subversive ideas. the notion that thinkers such as chomsky are mouthpieces for their publishing house is ridiculous.

im not doubting the influence corporations have in the world (mate, i was hanging out with the old marxists when you were still in primary school) but the argument that they have total control or that hard-working scientists or political theorists are all in their pocket simply isnt true, despite what prisonplanet.org tries to tell you.

yes, i know just how attractive and alluring the "alternative" opinion can be, but what you've got to realise is that there are plenty of credible sources coming out of the "military industrial complex" that have had to stand up to far more intense criticism and debate than any of the nonsense from the guys you pin your hopes on (like alan russo).

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Originally posted by toolman667 This is where my point of seeking the truth comes out. Have you learned about Computer technology? Have you worked for a dot com, let alone many of them? I have. I understand how to build one, I understand exactly what goes on, from the technical aspect to the business aspect of running a successful website. From routing protocols to common business models supporting the growth of a website. Throughout my studies into technology and computers, I have only learned how to think logically, and it really has opened my eyes.

if you were truly as "logical" and critical as you say you are, you wouldn't be saying idiotic things concerning WTC7. such a comment (forget where you made it) illustrates that critical thinking is something quite foreign to you.

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Originally posted by toolman667 People don't talk about logic anymore, people don't come together and discuss ideas openly, they just (as MLK told us NOT TO DO) point out differences, and call them looneys.

first off, if people dont talk about logic anymore, when exactly did they do you think? in any case, such discourse certainly continues to this day, and its really your own fault if you cant find it. there are wonderful examinations of just about anything being published every year, but those that are too cheap to buy a book end up surfing the net with the other "internet detectives" crying about the lack of original thought, when they're simply locking themselves off from entire bodies of intellectual endeavour and calling themsevles "free thinkers"

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Originally posted by toolman667 Do you have control, or do you just want to keep working "for the man" raising enough money to pay your debts, so you can buy a house, or hopefully some land (if there is some left, that isnt already owned by any huge corporations or governments).

of course i am in control. as for "just want to keep working etc" - what would you suggest the alternative is? hint: posting non-sequitur nonsense on an EDM forum means jackshit.

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Originally posted by toolman667 We are slaves. The internet has freed thought.

rubbish. all its done has allowed uneducated phillistines to believe they are smart because theyre not buying what "the man" is selling. there are plenty of us "free thinkers" that were thinking and reading freely well before the internet.

there's nothing wrong with attacking problems from an alternative viewpoint (indeed it should be encouraged!) but ignoring huge bodies of thought in favour of youtube, prisonplanet or 911truth is incredibly naive and ignorant.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN have you actually read any philosophers? i can tell you categorically that "these people" have absolutely NOTHING in common with some of the greatest minds we owe our society to.

Yes. Have you? I believe they all taught us one similar idea. To seek knowledge, not to accept what was given to you. Prove to yourself, and no one else, for no other reason but for the pursuit of knowledge on your own accord. And your ideas will live through time.

But again, MLK, you see differences, not similarities.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN so what? these are NOT the people i am pointing my fingers at. i am talking about those that feel traditional knowledge is somehow "poisoned" and that only the internet has free ideas, which is absolute idiocy.

(MLK Spoiler)Again you see Difference, not similarities. I cannot change that of you.

Traditional knowledge, did you read about philosophers and how they questioned everything, including "traditional knowledge", such as the earth is flat? There may have only been a few people, but they sure changed the way we think today, eons later.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN oh, more of this adolescent immaturity.

I wish I could write a song about Differences, and not similarities.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN firstly, scientific journals must undergo the rigours of peer review. they don't answer to nor speak for "the corporations", unless of course you could direct me to a specific corporation that owns the world's scientific community?

Of course they do. They also follow logic, in discerning research to find truths, thus everyone should adopt more scientific beliefs, but then we have religion. I don't want to start a "my gods better than your god flame war", because those are differences again, not similarities (THANK YOU MLK!).

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN if you had bothered to actually engage with any serious publications you would know that ye olde textbooks are rife with subversive ideas. the notion that thinkers such as chomsky are mouthpieces for their publishing house is ridiculous.

I think I lost you. Can't see how I could draw those conclusions, as I dont have those conclusions myself.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN im not doubting the influence corporations have in the world (mate, i was hanging out with the old marxists when you were still in primary school) but the argument that they have total control or that hard-working scientists or political theorists are all in their pocket simply isnt true, despite what prisonplanet.org tries to tell you.

Thus you look at human psychology, behavioral patterns of humans, history of societies, and start learning some more logic tricks from Game Theory, and what people like John Nash brought us.

Then you come to a rational conclusion that humans are inherently evil, and statistics can predict behavior. And you learn through teachings past down throughout history, about acceptance, and peace, and try to wonder why they were saying such things all throughout the world, all over the place. And you teach yourself to see SIMILARITIES, not differences.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN yes, i know just how attractive and alluring the "alternative" opinion can be, but what you've got to realise is that there are plenty of credible sources coming out of the "military industrial complex" that have had to stand up to far more intense criticism and debate than any of the nonsense from the guys you pin your hopes on (like alan russo).

This is just filler, you aren't saying anything. Who's alan russo?

At least you've hit home on one idea. "Military Industrial Complex" look that up, read into it, how it effects governments, how it effects humans as a whole, how it effects thinking, and society.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN if you were truly as "logical" and critical as you say you are, you wouldn't be saying idiotic things concerning WTC7. such a comment (forget where you made it) illustrates that critical thinking is something quite foreign to you.

K. Again, not really talking about the point, more attacks on me.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN first off, if people dont talk about logic anymore, when exactly did they do you think?

Uhm, did I not mention philosophers? MLK HELP ME!
You see differences, not similarities.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN in any case, such discourse certainly continues to this day, and its really your own fault if you cant find it. there are wonderful examinations of just about anything being published every year, but those that are too cheap to buy a book end up surfing the net with the other "internet detectives" crying about the lack of original thought, when they're simply locking themselves off from entire bodies of intellectual endeavour and calling themsevles "free thinkers"

Again, attacking me, not the point.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN of course i am in control. as for "just want to keep working etc" - what would you suggest the alternative is? hint: posting non-sequitur nonsense on an EDM forum means jackshit.

I think you should do whats passionate to you, as I have with computers. I have been able to make a career out of it, in our current form of society, but I still have passions, and will continue to pursue them simply because I like to seek knowledge.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN rubbish. all its done has allowed uneducated phillistines to believe they are smart because theyre not buying what "the man" is selling. there are plenty of us "free thinkers" that were thinking and reading freely well before the internet.

Yep. Again, attacks, and differences.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN there's nothing wrong with attacking problems from an alternative viewpoint (indeed it should be encouraged!) but ignoring huge bodies of thought in favour of youtube, prisonplanet or 911truth is incredibly naive and ignorant.

You certainly aren't encouraging it.

Last edited by toolman667 on Jan-22-2008 at 03:58

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN its also home to the "internet detectives" who feel that traditional works (textbooks, journals, articles, magazines, think tanks etc) have been supplanted by this "free forum" when a lot of "information" that appears on the net is absolute rubbish.

Not exactly, 'news' paper publications, journals, books, magazines, television networks etc. are bought out and owned by a hand full of coporations, which compromises their credibility and worth to a large extent. That doesn't mean you throw them out the window, it just implies a necessity to take them with a grain of salt. Or maybe even a bucket of salt, which could make them poisonous. Being already quite toxic and hazardous for your mental and intellectual health, sometimes it makes more sense to simply turn down the menu altogether. I guess when you have IPv6 and "Internet 2," the internet will become fairly obsolete as far as it's inherent and differentiating characteristics go.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN also, "liberal ideas" were a cornerstone of the creation of the internet, so i dont see it as a necessary tool for the perpetuation of a body of thought that is over 400 years old.

LOL, I didn't know military projects, specifically DARPA's ARPANET, in any way, shape, or form comprised part of the conrner stone of "liberal ideas" or were a consequent results of them.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

i was wondering if you were gonna wade on in shaolin!

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Not exactly, 'news' paper publications, journals, books, magazines, television networks etc. are bought out and owned by a hand full of coporations, which compromises their credibility and worth to a large extent. That doesn't mean you throw them out the window, it just implies a necessity to take them with a grain of salt.

oh, absolutely. i always favour knowing where someone's "bias" comes from. but, when it comes to (say) scientific journals- the influence of the corporations is negligible at best. no reputable scientist is going to put their name to something they have produced if they believe it to be in error, and certainly not at the whim of those evil corporations. which corporation is behind the scientific community's general global warming consensus (given that global warming is against just about any corporation's interests you'd care to mention)?

as for tv networks, of course they are owned and manipulated. but that's why i don't really include them in the "discourse" coz other than reporting news (ie kevin rudd has won the 2007 aussie election) i dont pay them any heed at all when it comes to the underlying causes of ANYTHING.

the big difference (for me at least) is those that are published in the realm of political philosophy. i challenge anyone to provide evidence that the evil corporations are influencing some of today's critical thinkers or their writing. there are PLENTY of chomsky's about challenging the status quo with published books that are no doubt owned by some evil corporation or another. shit still gets published, granted, but so does some really good writing.

take everything with a grain of salt, absolutely! but there needs to be a far greater reason to ignore or discard a published work than simply "oh, murdoch owns that publishing house". especially when those that do the arbitrary ignoring fail to grasp the personal or political machinations behind those that they trust with little or no scepticism. just because something isnt owned by the corporate media does not, in and of itself, ensure they are any more trustworthy.

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LOL, I didn't know military projects, specifically DARPA's ARPANET, in any way, shape, or form comprised part of the conrner stone of "liberal ideas" or were a consequent results of them.

liberalism is the founder of free market capitalism and representative government. without the freedom (and motivation) provided in such systems many technologies would never have seen the light of day. military projects are almost always private enterprises

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN military projects are almost always private enterprises

mmmhuh? If it's a military project, it's using government funds, no? It's been said the US government has spent over 1 trillion dollars on secret weapons systems throughout the decades. That's money you don't get from private enterprise...