quote:

Originally posted by Krypton I'm not denying there are no socio-economic factors influencing the the lower economic standards of blacks. But, it also takes the motivation to pull oneself out of economic hardship that can bring about positive change.

Considering the extra amount of stress and other psychological factors that black americans have to deal with in comparison to other people in american society, I think it's safe to say that the situation necessitates more than just 'motivation'. There is enough evidence to suggest that those few black americans that successfully move from great levels of poverty to 'middle class' or 'upper class' life, including athletes, were lucky enough to grow up with crucial factors that facilitate their development into successful individuals. If you are truly interested I can elaborate further, but for that I would have to break open a couple of books I haven't touched in a while. Suffice to say, motivation alone will not get most black americans out of poverty, there needs to be certain supports provided by government and society as a whole (and no I don't mean the current money giving system).

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Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

quote:

Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN so what? you seem all too happy to make comments about all kinds of things you're not personally privvy to, whats the difference?

I don't comment an racism in Australia, or in any other part of the world, nor would I ever presume to do so.... So at least admit that you only know about racism here from what you READ, which in no way equates to what could even be loosely called "knowledge" on the matter.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN did you notice me talking about SEXISM, not racism? as well as the power relationship between workers and employers, which is the same across the world

???

See, this why you're a joke to me. You can't even remember what you posted, and/or you just flat out deny it, and/or you're just to fucked up the rest of the time to remember it.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN ...if people merely look at anti-discrimination laws whilst ignoring the (very real) problems of institutionalised racism, they believe (as donny does) that there IS equality yet don't appreciate the informal barriers that exist that act in exactly the same ways as something like apartheid would. In a culture like the US, where the power balance is placed far in the hands of the employers, an employer doesn't have to tell a black man that he's not getting the job because he's black, so how does the formal equality laws really effect change for black prospective employees? Its very hard to prove discrimination in such an environment, especially when the overwhelming majority of people would use the formalised equality as evidence of actual equality...

THAT is speaking directly to the matter and is in relation to the topic (and the thread). EOM!

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN dont put words in my mouth fool. i made no such predictions. i merely compared institutionalised issues with each other, and their relationship to legislated equality. You need to brush up on your reading comprehension.

You make assumptions about it. Again, you don't live here, so STFU about it. You come off like an ass posting about something as sensitive as racism in another country, where you know nothing about it except what you've read from bias sources.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN please highlight the part where i said that

No problem;

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN if people merely look at anti-discrimination laws whilst ignoring the (very real) problems of institutionalised racism, they believe (as donny does) that there IS equality yet don't appreciate the informal barriers that exist that act in exactly the same ways as something like apartheid would.

This is why debating you is pointless. You contradict yourself endlessly, claim you aren't saying things that you ARE saying, then run away like a spoiled baby, screaming; "you don't understand what I'm saaaaayyyyyying!!!

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN where did i say there was a lot of racism going on? yes, there IS institutionalised racism, how much is up for debate. if you think formalised equality makes everything better after a few decades then you are sadly mistaken. laws don't change perception, and perception continues from generation to generation, albeit to a lesser degree. why do i believe there is racism in the workplace? because people are ignorant and biased and hold irrational beliefs the world over. Perhaps you could explain to me why you think the almighty US of A is atypical in this regard? racism is a problem in all societies.

Never said there was NO racism in America.

Again, what you know (versus reality) about American racisms doesn't qualify you to speak on the matter to the degree in which you are.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN haha, fuck off old man. its not my fault your reading comprehension is so bad that you go on a rant about all kinds of things that i never said or think. i am merely drawing a comparison between legislative equality concerning sexism and racism, and that such legislation is not the silver bullet for discrimination, at least not yet.

lol...why do you assume your lame-ass attempts at insulting me by singling out my age are hurtful? I mean really; don't you think that's kind of immature and impish?

All I've ever asked the Mod to do was take down posts with my EXACT age because I don't care to share exact personal information in the Internet that could end up being used to perpetuate identity theft on me (which I've had happen before). But you mis-read that and assume I'm all bothered by people knowing that I'm over 40, so you keep bringing it up, because you have nothing more to jab at me with than your petty attempts at insulting people. You're a child.

I'm in my early 40's everyone!!!

There, now EVERYONE on here who doesn't already know me personally, knows. Happy?

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The thing about money? It makes you do things that you don't want to do

Last edited by donnybrasco on Feb-14-2008 at 01:46

This forum is a sharktank...

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco I don't comment an racism in Australia, or in any other part of the world, nor would I ever presume to do so.... So at least admit that you only know about racism here from what you READ, which in no way equates to what could even be loosely called "knowledge" on the matter.

of course its from what ive read. and reading about a subject you get a far broader understanding of the issue than you do with "what happened with these two black people i once worked with".

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Originally posted by donnybrasco See, this why you're a joke to me. You can't even remember what you posted, and/or you just flat out deny it, and/or you're just to fucked up the rest of the time to remember it.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i havent really examined race relations in particular detail but as a student of feminism i'd like to postulate the following idea:

the reason youre a "joke" to me is that you fail utterly to grasp what is and is not being said by posters on here (not just me). its natural for people to take things in writing differently, but your tangents and mistaken understandings seem to be rather regular.

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Originally posted by donnybrasco THAT is speaking directly to the matter and is in relation to the topic (and the thread). EOM!

and yes, prefaced by my comment regarding legislative equality in gender relations. again, reading comprehension is key.

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Originally posted by donnybrasco You make assumptions about it. Again, you don't live here, so STFU about it. You come off like an ass posting about something as sensitive as racism in another country, where you know nothing about it except what you've read from bias sources.

i have made no such assumptions other than

a)legislative equality does not engender equality the day the laws are passed and do not counter informal levels of racism immediately.

b)the power relationship in employment (especially in the US) is heavily skewed in favour of the employer.

now, if you wish to argue either of these points i'd gladly take your argument, but nowhere have i made assumptions about racism in america. again, youre totally not getting where im coming from.

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco This is why debating you is pointless. You contradict yourself endlessly, claim you aren't saying things that you ARE saying, then run away like a spoiled baby, screaming; "you don't understand what I'm saaaaayyyyyying!!!

there is no contradiction, and no, you dont understand what i am saying. there isnt a single contradiction from me in this whole thread actually. again, i refer you back to my only two real comments a & b.

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Originally posted by donnybrasco Never said there was NO racism in America. Again, what you know (versus reality) about American racisms doesn't qualify you to speak on the matter to the degree in which you are.

again, i refer you back to a & b. nowhere have i made ANY claims about american racism, other than a & b and how they might relate in the US context, drawing on institutionalised sexism which is something i DO know an awful lot about.

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Originally posted by donnybrasco lol...why do you assume your lame-ass attempts at insulting me by singling out my age are hurtful? I mean really; don't you think that's kind of immature and impish?

you call me a hippie, i call you an old man. why you crying about it? indeed, every single insult from me since you re-joined these boards has been in a direct response to yours, so you do the math

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco All I've ever asked the Mod to do was take down posts with my EXACT age because I don't care to share exact personal information in the Internet that could end up being used to perpetuate identity theft on me (which I've had happen before). But you mis-read that and assume I'm all bothered by people knowing that I'm over 40, so you keep bringing it up, because you have nothing more to jab at me with than your petty attempts at insulting people. You're a child. I'm in my early 40's everyone!!!

i have absolutely NO idea what youre talking about.

i hope i have made myself clear to you this time, but i won't hold my breath.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN of course its from what ive read. and reading about a subject you get a far broader understanding of the issue than you do with "what happened with these two black people i once worked with".

If I read a book about the Outback, do you think I'd then presume to be an expert about it? Or to even be qualified to say what it is like, versus what I THINK it is like based on what I read?

You make statements like you KNOW what's going on over here, as if you read some sort of holy bible on race in America and now, you've got it all figured out.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN the reason youre a "joke" to me is that you fail utterly to grasp what is and is not being said by posters on here (not just me). its natural for people to take things in writing differently, but your tangents and mistaken understandings seem to be rather regular.

If you say so, then it must be true!

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN and yes, prefaced by my comment regarding legislative equality in gender relations. again, reading comprehension is key.

Prefaced or not, it's a mistaken assertion you made based on what; a book you read? lol.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i have made no such assumptions other than a)legislative equality does not engender equality the day the laws are passed and do not counter informal levels of racism immediately. b)the power relationship in employment (especially in the US) is heavily skewed in favor of the employer.

"the power relationship in employment (especially in the US) is heavily skewed in favor of the employer"...WTF???

Have you ever worked here? Do you even KNOW about all of the recourse that employees have available to them in this country to bring lawsuits and grievances against their employer?

You've got Labor Boards in every state.

The Federal anti-discrimination laws.

You've got THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of Lawyers in this country who do nothing but specialize in suing Employers all day long, for grievances real AND imagined (or flat out contrived).

To get fired, a person has to be written up 3 times (at least in California, the largest state in the Union...I assume other states it is similar).

Employers are SO afraid of all of these lawsuits and laws, that they bend over backwards making sure that before they fire someone, that person has done everything but fuck their wife and burn down their office building. It's fucking LAME what it takes to make employees accountable anymore in this country.

You really are digging a hole for yourself the more you claim to "know" about this country at this level. I'd let it lie if I were you.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN you call me a hippie, i call you an old man. why you crying about it? indeed, every single insult from me since you re-joined these boards has been in a direct response to yours, so you do the math

More of your bullshit. You most DEFINITELY have hurled the insults first. I'll try and go back and find the first thread I've posted to you in since my return here a month or so back, if you like? I am quite positive that you did it first because I even brought it up!

And BTW; I didn't call you a "hippie". What I said was; "...your idealism is pure played-out, misguided, misinformed old hippie movement crap from the 60's"

Again; "Reading comprehension skills"...your favorite mantra that you think you live by. Try directing it at yourself, where it belongs.

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The thing about money? It makes you do things that you don't want to do

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco If I read a book about the Outback, do you think I'd then presume to be an expert about it? Or to even be qualified to say what it is like, versus what I THINK it is like based on what I read?

i would think you had every reason to voice your opinion. how does living in a country give you any authority to speak on anything? you know, given how fucking stupid so many people are, i hardly think "oooh, im an american" is a particularly compelling argument as to why someone else is wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco You make statements like you KNOW what's going on over here, as if you read some sort of holy bible on race in America and now, you've got it all figured out.

no i havent, not even close. what's wrong with you? seriously, i barely touched on race outside the two distinct areas ive tried to bring to your attention for the 10th fucking time.

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco Prefaced or not, it's a mistaken assertion you made based on what; a book you read? lol.

there were no assertions asides from a&b.

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco "the power relationship in employment (especially in the US) is heavily skewed in favor of the employer"...WTF???

we're talking about people going for jobs, no? (go back and see my original post if youre still confused) so who do you think has all the power in that relationship? come on now, let's be serious.

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco Have you ever worked here? Do you even KNOW about all of the recourse that employees have available to them in this country to bring lawsuits and grievances against their employer?

of course i know do you really think your wonderful country is so very different from australia or britain? i mean seriously. we both have the same shit over here, stop kidding yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco You've got Labor Boards in every state. The Federal anti-discrimination laws. You've got THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of Lawyers in this country who do nothing but specialize in suing Employers all day long, for grievances real AND imagined (or flat out contrived). To get fired, a person has to be written up 3 times (at least in California, the largest state in the Union...I assume other states it is similar). Employers are SO afraid of all of these lawsuits and laws, that they bend over backwards making sure that before they fire someone, that person has done everything but fuck their wife and burn down their office building. It's fucking LAME what it takes to make employees accountable anymore in this country.

again, we're (or at least i was) talking about prospective employees, within the contexts of institutionalised racism (or sexism as the case may be). please note my example given earlier to give my comments context.

there is no law at all that can actually, really protect employees in the face of (hidden) discrimination. as long as an employer doesnt say "hey, im not hiring you coz youre a woman" then no, there is no recourse. which was my original point wasn't it? legislative equality doesn't do everything that some people seem to think it does. you can't legislate against what goes on in somebody's head.

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco You really are digging a hole for yourself the more you claim to "know" about this country at this level. I'd let it lie if I were you.

your country behaves just like any other liberal democracy only the names of the arbitration councils or acts change.

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco More of your bullshit. You most DEFINITELY have hurled the insults first.

no, i really didnt.

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco I'll try and go back and find the first thread I've posted to you in since my return here a month or so back, if you like? I am quite positive that you did it first because I even brought it up!

please go ahead. go exmaine the gun laws thread. unless of course you consider me comparing you to trancer, which i admit is a horrible insult and i apologise

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco And BTW; I didn't call you a "hippie". What I said was; "...your idealism is pure played-out, misguided, misinformed old hippie movement crap from the 60's"

which is different from calling me a hippie how?

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here we go.

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco Sometimes I really think you must have fallen down and smacked your little head on the curb You really come off as a moron sometimes, you know that

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...=&pagenumber=15

id be interested for you to find an insult from me against you before that post.

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^^^That quote is from page 13!! LONG after you started to lose it.

And I never said that it was in that particular thread that you first insulted me, but given how WRONG you constantly are, I wouldn't be surprised if you threw out the first insult again in that thread, because I did re-read a large part of it just now and found where I asked you to keep it civil (yet again), but you couldn't, so you lost it. But I will look at it more thoroughly in a minute and see...and I will locate the OTHER thread that I'm talking about. And when all is said and done, you'll deny the FACTS (like you always do) and simply go away crying "foul" (because crying and whining like a bitch is your specialty...and yes, I just DID insult you, because the gloves are off, the way you wanted it to be).

But in the meantime, here's your "hippie" reference from that same thread, the one where you accuse me of calling you a "hippie". Note that it was YOU who described YOURSELF in hippie-like terms FIRST, not me!

And I never even called YOU a "Hippie". I just said that your view was "myopic" and asked you what the "tree-huggers" of the world (tree huggers=people who want to "live in rainbows and sunshine with my little ponies", as you have described yourself) will defend themselves from people who don't think like that?;

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN ...i have a tremendous care for all decent people around the globe.... i want everybody to live in rainbows and sunshine with my little ponies...

...and my response...

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco Mmmm, and do you think that EVERYONE shares your myopic view of the world? What shall the tree-huggers of the world do then, when those people who wish to enslave their vulnerable asses, chose to do so, as has happened time and again throughout history, and is still happening now?

And on a side note (and out of pure curiosity), why would you have a problem being called a "Hippie" anyway? You certainly seem like you fit the bill. Your views are totally in line with that out-dated social experiment. I think your supposed irritation about being called one is not genuine, but you are rather simply grasping at any straw to explain your childish behavior with me.

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The thing about money? It makes you do things that you don't want to do

Here's where you started to lose it, on page 12;

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN which is just the stupidest load of crap ive read this week. if that's what your gun lobby thinks then im not surprised there are retards with guns all over your country. i mean, do you REALLY subscribe to such a stupid idea?

...my response in part;

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco You are doing a dis-service to yourself, both ethically and morally, when you chose to debate like this. It's your loss, in more ways than one, when you do.

So my support of owning a gun makes me "stupid" and a "retard"? And THAT is not an personal insult? Riiiiiiiiiiiiight

Now; Do you REALLY want me to go and find the first thread where you insulted me since my return to TA, or do you just want to let it lie now?

(Piece of advice; I'd concede defeat and let it lie, if I were you, because this debate is getting lame and you're perpetually WRONG anyway )

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The thing about money? It makes you do things that you don't want to do

oh, where did i "lose it"? nowhere in that thread did i direct abuse towards you, (asides from the whole trancer thing) until after the comments i just posted.

FYI that hippie quote from me is obviously tongue in cheek, its not my fault youre too dense to see it. i mean seriously, does that comment sound at all serious? my little ponies ffs!

and no donny, i ran away "crying" as you say, because i had spent a significant amount of time typing my responses to you and you returned it with abuse. hey, im never one to shy away from a bit of abuse, i dish it out constantly, but i thought we were having a great, dignified discussion (that i was enjoying greatly i might add) up until that stage. my childish behaviour directed TOWARDS you was in a direct response. perhaps you feel something i said before then was offensive, but that certainly wasnt my intent, and if you could point it out id be more than happy to admit my guilt. but from my perspective, it was that post i already highlighted where i felt things ran off course.

quote:

and I will locate the OTHER thread that I'm talking about.

? if that thread was AFTER the FBI one i merely continued coz youd bent me out of shape.

also FYI, i am nowhere near "hippiedom" which is why i resent the insinuation. the only people that think im a hippy would be those ultra conservative fucks to whom everybody left of them is a goddamn socialist.

anywayz, alls fair in love and war. but fuck, i have absolutely no interest in my little ponies!

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quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco Here's where you started to lose it, on page 12; ...my response in part; So my support of owning a gun makes me "stupid" and a "retard"? And THAT is not an personal insult? Riiiiiiiiiiiiight

i wasnt calling you a retard, nor was i saying that there is a correlation between gun ownership and retardation. BUT i was saying there ARE retards and some of them DO have guns. this wasnt directed at you at all, just retards with guns and the NRA

quote:

Now; Do you REALLY want me to go and find the first thread where you insulted me since my return to TA, or do you just want to let it lie now?

i might have mocked you for fun, but from memory i actually welcomed you back. but then again trancer got all bent out of shape when i welcomed him back and you two are so cosy...

quote:

(Piece of advice; I'd concede defeat and let it lie, if I were you, because this debate is getting lame and you're perpetually WRONG anyway )

but im not losing, its not my fault you take offense at comments clearly not directed at you. like i said, i was enjoying that chat quite a lot and had gone out of my way not to insult you in any way.

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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN ...if you could point it out id be more than happy to admit my guilt.

See my post just before you posted this.

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The thing about money? It makes you do things that you don't want to do